Sir John Valentine Carden Survives. Part 2.
- Thread starter allanpcameron
- Start date
One of the recent posts by Doctor Devereaux on his 'collection of unmitigated pedantry' blog was actually about the problems of command in real world battles and how in the pre-modern era giving orders and getting them followed/implemented could be tricky and involve delays for any general (unless they were literally in the middle of a unit, controlling it personally.)
I think it was this post: https://acoup.blog/2022/06/03/colle...ommanding-pre-modern-armies-part-ii-commands/
They can't really get thrown in since they will probably get caught up in the ongoing mess. Maybe deployed as a forlorn hope to allow the Italians to fall back? But there aren't really enough left to make a difference.
SURRENDER .. Hitler will NOT like that .. and if he has any brains working he will see that he could perhaps salvage something from the wreckage
Simply order as many of the DAF (plus Italians as well) to flee into Vichy French-held territory and demand protection and return to the Fatherland
If the British do not pursue and the Vichy comply then they are saved and Vichy bound into more cooperation
if the British pursue and the Vichy resists, then more British casualties, Vichy and Britain are formally at war worldwide and very bad propaganda in the USA
If the British pursue and the Vichy hand the fugitives over, then Hitler can simply implement case Anton!
Not exactly a Win-Win-Win outcome BUT ...
Hmm that makes me wonder how much fuel they have though to allow them to reach the Vichy border? I mean they must be burning through their stocks right now trying to parry and deflect crusade so they will probably have to leave a lot of stuff behind and march to the Vichy border for a lot of unlucky formations, which in turn means a lot of units will be taken.
Also I’m not sure if the Vichy have any solid counter in NA short of their heavy arty guns to British Tanks, it also probably doesn’t help that by and large the French Algerian forces probably have poor moral at this point and are bound by treaty.
edit: also if he order German forces to bugger off he has blown up many bridges with Italy they will remember exactly what has happened as well which will make things very dicey for the Axis internally.
Also I’m not sure if the Vichy have any solid counter in NA short of their heavy arty guns to British Tanks, it also probably doesn’t help that by and large the French Algerian forces probably have poor moral at this point and are bound by treaty.
edit: also if he order German forces to bugger off he has blown up many bridges with Italy they will remember exactly what has happened as well which will make things very dicey for the Axis internally.
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Errr.... If Vichy accepts the German forces, then the Vichy pretence of neutrality is shattered, and the Brits have every right to pursue. And the US will be forced to recognize that.
It seems that the Italian retreat is rather hasty. They are trying to retreat as soon as possible while engaged across the whole frontline. It seems to me that under these conditions, a great part of the italian artillery will have to be left behind. If they are very light in artillery it will be pure madness to try to hold Misrata. Especially since the Ariete has suffered grievous losses.
When it comes to retreating to Tripoli, I think the Italians have very limited lift capacity. Honestly, I think that only the Trieste and Ariete divisions can retreat on time with the leg infantry left behind in Misrata. Even so, the author stated that the only mobile reserve was the Ariete, so Trieste having been deployed could have lost part of its artillery.
At the beginning of OTL Crusader, the Ariete had 146 M13/40 tanks. However, in TTL they had casualties due to hard fighting with the Australians during Battleaxe. Therefore, there best case for the Italians means that all Battleaxe losses were covered and during the current retreat to Misrata and beyond not a single M13 breaks down. Even that, leaves them with 71 M13s. However, according to the always useful "Crusader Project", Ariete had 20 runners by the end of OTL Crusader. Thus, if I had to guess, they will reach Tripoli with significantly fewer than 71 tanks.
When it comes to retreating to Tripoli, I think the Italians have very limited lift capacity. Honestly, I think that only the Trieste and Ariete divisions can retreat on time with the leg infantry left behind in Misrata. Even so, the author stated that the only mobile reserve was the Ariete, so Trieste having been deployed could have lost part of its artillery.
At the beginning of OTL Crusader, the Ariete had 146 M13/40 tanks. However, in TTL they had casualties due to hard fighting with the Australians during Battleaxe. Therefore, there best case for the Italians means that all Battleaxe losses were covered and during the current retreat to Misrata and beyond not a single M13 breaks down. Even that, leaves them with 71 M13s. However, according to the always useful "Crusader Project", Ariete had 20 runners by the end of OTL Crusader. Thus, if I had to guess, they will reach Tripoli with significantly fewer than 71 tanks.
Derek Pullem
Donor
Operation Exporter in Syria and Lebanon did not go as OTL and hasn't happened ITTL. So the question of Vichy "neutrality" is still a plausible one (despite Mers-el-Kebir and Dakar).
I'm somewhat suspicious that DAK will tangle with 45th bn RTR and 151st Brigade and wouldn't like to call the result on that one. But eventually DAK and any Tripoli garrison will be overwhelmed and absent a German "Dunkirk" will be faced with a trip across the border. Given that it's likely to be only a few thousand Germans and not the hundreds of thousands trapped in Tunisia IOTL then a Vichy charade of "interning" the troops might be the most likely outcome. Or Vichy may allow the transit of German troops as Sweden IOTL had done in the summer of 1941. Whether that would be enough to encourage an attack by O'Connor I doubt
The Italians probably performed their last properly strong defensive stand here. If they had enough guns to knock out plenty of British tanks despite said tanks being fairly resistant to the standard Italian AT guns, then this suggests that they probably concentrated a lot of their in-theatre guns in this battle. With the army routed by the flank attack, all of those guns are write-offs. One of their two elite units was reduced to scraps by an unfortunate engagement in the ensuing chaos. One would question what they have to defend Misrata and Tripoli with. If they decide they only have the means to defend one, will they gamble on holding Misrata until more support from the homeland arrives, or abandon that to buy time for a final stand at Tripoli?
There are three ways this can go:
1) The greater part of the DAK is caught unawares and or lacks the resources to retreat, thus surrendering in place.
2) The greater part of the DAK flees, arrives at the Tunisian border, and is interred, thus preserving French neutrality.
3) The greater part of the DAK flees, arrives at the Tunisian border, and the French let them through, thus breaking French neutrality.
Option 1 is the best, but the toss-up between options 2 and 3 if the Germans are fore-warned of the Italians breaking is really up for debate.
1) The greater part of the DAK is caught unawares and or lacks the resources to retreat, thus surrendering in place.
2) The greater part of the DAK flees, arrives at the Tunisian border, and is interred, thus preserving French neutrality.
3) The greater part of the DAK flees, arrives at the Tunisian border, and the French let them through, thus breaking French neutrality.
Option 1 is the best, but the toss-up between options 2 and 3 if the Germans are fore-warned of the Italians breaking is really up for debate.
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Ah, so that is the cunning plan to solve logistic problems - start building more trucks 😁i think they were called DAK
DAF is a truck manufacturer
and cunning it is, as a fox that just graduated at cunning at cambridge.
fun fact, DAF trucks competed many times in the paris-dakar rally in the past
'Cheese eating surrender monkey' will probably (and unfairly) be even more prevalent, given that the British managed to do somewhat better, both at Arras and also at Calais.