But…but…but rotten edifice and all that 😱Lost cause. Once the Soviets were defeated.
Hmmm.... I see more than just one lost cause there....
Sir John Valentine Carden Survives. Part 2.
- Thread starter allanpcameron
- Start date
Well Britain will be putting the boot into Europe's "Soft Underbelly".
I quite like the soft Aegean approachWell Britain will be putting the boot into Europe's "Soft Underbelly".
Given the events of the recent past (the Winter War), it didn't look like a bad call to make. Hells, if Stalin hadn't been as firmly ensconced in power as he was, it might have been a fairly decent call.
Donald Reaver
Donor
Will Italy still be sending the same amount of forces to Russian i.t.t.l.? Seems likely lesser or no forces sent considering the greater threat to losing North Africa and Crete holding. The British have far more opportunity to finish off North Africa and take islands in the Aegean.
If the Tobruk raid means that the MAS lads can't do Alexandria, that helps the RN a fair bit. With QE and Valiant still operational, the Andrew aren't quite as overstretched. Providing the Army can clear up Libya, that helps the RN even more, due to reduced pressure in the Med. They'll still need to keep enough in the Med to deter the RM, and at home to keep the KM honest, but there's a bit more slack in the system.
There's more than that, I'd say that given the different play of events, HMS Formidable wasn't damaged as per OTL, and likely neither were HMS Warspite and HMS Barnham, and HMS Ark Royal won't be sunk.
Everyone in the Heer thought so.
Except the logistics specialists.
They said it could not be done and were told to put up and shut up.
I imagine that they took very little satisfaction in being proven right.
That's not even counting the escorts that are still around as well which will go a long way to providing both screens, run convoys and of course escort to the larger warships.
Huh that also means that a lot more Heavy Cruisers are kicking around as well.
Considering what happened to the first and second echelons of the Red Army in 1941 the rest of the Heer was right. The Red Army was a rotten edifice and did come crashing down. But the logistics specialists were correct in saying that the distance from the border to the key political centres of Leningrad, Stalingrad and Moscow were just too far away to be reached in a single year and when the Germans reached their culmination point the Soviets had been able to create new armies to rebuild the front.
2 November 1941. El Gheddahia, Libya. Operation Crusader, Day 1.
allanpcameron
Donor
2 November 1941. El Gheddahia, Libya. Operation Crusader, Day 1.
The Valiant I Tanks of 6th Bn RTR (4th Armoured Brigade) accompanied the men of 22nd (Guards) Brigade (2nd Bn Scots Guards [2SG], 3 Bn Coldstream Guards [3CG], 1st Bn Durham Light Infantry [1 DLI]) before first light from their starting positions. The entire artillery assets of XIII Corps had begun their bombardment at 04:00hrs. Two hours of constant firing had covered the movement of men and machines up to the point where the Royal Engineers had been working silently to probe for mines. Streamers of white tape marked the cleared lanes for the men to move forward.
Aggressive patrolling by the men of 23rd Brigade (2nd Bn York and Lancaster Regiment [2YLR]; 2nd Kings Own Royal Regiment [2KRR] and 1st Battalion the Buffs [1 Buffs]) in the preceding weeks, along with aerial reconnaissance had shown up the first line of Italian defences. These were merely trip wire positions. Only about 600 men were strung out in a series of self-supporting boxes, with layers of mines providing them further protection from incursions. Each of these boxes had received a great weight of artillery fire. The rolling barrage preceded the Scots Guards and B Squadron of Valiant tanks, as they closed with these enemy positions, all of which were neutralised just after dawn. The few machine gun positions that had opened fire on the Scots as they approached had been dealt with by the Valiant tanks providing cover for the advancing infantry.
As suspected, the Italian artillery had tried to keep itself masked as much as possible, but they had zeroed in on these same defensive boxes to catch out the British infantry as they consolidated their gains. The first main objective for the Guard’s Brigade attack was an abandoned air strip some ten miles from the start point. The route they were following was primarily westwards, which put the rising sun in the eyes of the Italians. The Scots Guards had moved through the Italian positions as quickly as their officers could manage. The Italian barrage fell behind the majority of the Guardsmen, though those caught by it had plenty of Italian bunkers and trenches to shelter in.
Once the attack had got underway towards the airfield, the majority of XIII Corps medium artillery attempted to counter the Italian artillery. As promised, a Walrus amphibian from HMS Queen Elizabeth, carried an artillery spotter who gave the RA commander clear guidance about where to strike and corrections to fire. The Field Regiments switched their fire to support 6th Division’s other thrust straight up the road to Misrata. 7th Hussars provided the Valiant Infantry Tanks, while 16th Brigade (1st Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders [1 A&SH], 2nd Bn Leicestershire Regiment [2 LR], 2nd Bn Queens Royal Regiment [2QRR]) provided the infantry. With 2 QRR taking the lead, this thrust also had an abandoned air landing ground as its objective. General Evetts was aware that this would likely be the more difficult route for the men of his 6th Division. His other Brigade (23rd Bde, & 41 RTR) would be ready to move to support 16th Brigade if they got bogged down.
The speed of the British advance was limited primarily by having to deal with landmines. The mine clearance vehicles that had arrived for evaluation in Egypt with mine ploughs and the rotating drum driving chains to detonate mines were still back in the Delta. The plough idea had been taken up by some of the 6th Bn RTR Light Aid Detachments (LAD). Four Valiant Is had been equipped with locally produced versions. The stony ground of the desert wasn’t ideal for this method, but it was either that or men pushing bayonets into the ground inch by inch. In exercises beforehand three of the tanks had taken up a V formation so that mines would be moved aside by the first, and then the next two, creating a wider lane.
Putting their training into practice, the three tanks attempted to move forward at a steady pace. The infantry followed, walking only where the tracks of the tanks had passed. After moving a few hundred yards a mine detonated under the plough on the left-hand tank, bending the plough out of shape. This tank reversed and the spare tank moved up to take its place. The LAD had made a few extra ploughs, expecting this result. The three tanks carried on while the damaged plough was dismounted and replaced.
It became clear quite quickly that the Italians didn’t have an unlimited supply of land mines. While areas were marked as minefields, as the ploughs moved forward, they weren’t actually shifting any mines after the first couple of hundred yards. There were still mines around, but the minefields were found to be sparsely sown. The quickened pace allowed the Scots Guards and tanks to cover the ground much more quickly. The ground towards the air strip was generally open, so the Italians hadn’t made any great efforts to defend the indefensible. A company of 1 DLI with the Regiment’s carrier platoon was protecting the southern flank, south of the wadi along which the route being followed by the main force.
It was late afternoon when the tanks and men arrived at the deserted airstrip. There were signs of former use, and many craters from previous visits by the RAF. The plan was to stop for the night, to allow the rest of the Battalion to catch up, and for the tanks to refuel and re-arm. C Squadron would take over the push the next day with the men of 3CG. By the end of operations on the first day, only three men had been killed in action, another ten wounded, mostly to landmines.
Unlike 6th BN RTR, the 7th Hussars hadn’t experimented with plough attachments. Progress up the main coastal road was therefore slower. The area between the road and the coast also had to be cleared, which 1 A&SH were responsible for. As the first day of Operation Crusader concluded the progress was just over five miles from the start lines. One tank had been disabled by a mine, losing its track. Six men had been killed and another twenty wounded. The majority of the casualties had resulted from a well-planned ambush which had caught a platoon of 1 A&SH out in the open.
The Valiant I Tanks of 6th Bn RTR (4th Armoured Brigade) accompanied the men of 22nd (Guards) Brigade (2nd Bn Scots Guards [2SG], 3 Bn Coldstream Guards [3CG], 1st Bn Durham Light Infantry [1 DLI]) before first light from their starting positions. The entire artillery assets of XIII Corps had begun their bombardment at 04:00hrs. Two hours of constant firing had covered the movement of men and machines up to the point where the Royal Engineers had been working silently to probe for mines. Streamers of white tape marked the cleared lanes for the men to move forward.
Aggressive patrolling by the men of 23rd Brigade (2nd Bn York and Lancaster Regiment [2YLR]; 2nd Kings Own Royal Regiment [2KRR] and 1st Battalion the Buffs [1 Buffs]) in the preceding weeks, along with aerial reconnaissance had shown up the first line of Italian defences. These were merely trip wire positions. Only about 600 men were strung out in a series of self-supporting boxes, with layers of mines providing them further protection from incursions. Each of these boxes had received a great weight of artillery fire. The rolling barrage preceded the Scots Guards and B Squadron of Valiant tanks, as they closed with these enemy positions, all of which were neutralised just after dawn. The few machine gun positions that had opened fire on the Scots as they approached had been dealt with by the Valiant tanks providing cover for the advancing infantry.
As suspected, the Italian artillery had tried to keep itself masked as much as possible, but they had zeroed in on these same defensive boxes to catch out the British infantry as they consolidated their gains. The first main objective for the Guard’s Brigade attack was an abandoned air strip some ten miles from the start point. The route they were following was primarily westwards, which put the rising sun in the eyes of the Italians. The Scots Guards had moved through the Italian positions as quickly as their officers could manage. The Italian barrage fell behind the majority of the Guardsmen, though those caught by it had plenty of Italian bunkers and trenches to shelter in.
Once the attack had got underway towards the airfield, the majority of XIII Corps medium artillery attempted to counter the Italian artillery. As promised, a Walrus amphibian from HMS Queen Elizabeth, carried an artillery spotter who gave the RA commander clear guidance about where to strike and corrections to fire. The Field Regiments switched their fire to support 6th Division’s other thrust straight up the road to Misrata. 7th Hussars provided the Valiant Infantry Tanks, while 16th Brigade (1st Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders [1 A&SH], 2nd Bn Leicestershire Regiment [2 LR], 2nd Bn Queens Royal Regiment [2QRR]) provided the infantry. With 2 QRR taking the lead, this thrust also had an abandoned air landing ground as its objective. General Evetts was aware that this would likely be the more difficult route for the men of his 6th Division. His other Brigade (23rd Bde, & 41 RTR) would be ready to move to support 16th Brigade if they got bogged down.
The speed of the British advance was limited primarily by having to deal with landmines. The mine clearance vehicles that had arrived for evaluation in Egypt with mine ploughs and the rotating drum driving chains to detonate mines were still back in the Delta. The plough idea had been taken up by some of the 6th Bn RTR Light Aid Detachments (LAD). Four Valiant Is had been equipped with locally produced versions. The stony ground of the desert wasn’t ideal for this method, but it was either that or men pushing bayonets into the ground inch by inch. In exercises beforehand three of the tanks had taken up a V formation so that mines would be moved aside by the first, and then the next two, creating a wider lane.
Putting their training into practice, the three tanks attempted to move forward at a steady pace. The infantry followed, walking only where the tracks of the tanks had passed. After moving a few hundred yards a mine detonated under the plough on the left-hand tank, bending the plough out of shape. This tank reversed and the spare tank moved up to take its place. The LAD had made a few extra ploughs, expecting this result. The three tanks carried on while the damaged plough was dismounted and replaced.
It became clear quite quickly that the Italians didn’t have an unlimited supply of land mines. While areas were marked as minefields, as the ploughs moved forward, they weren’t actually shifting any mines after the first couple of hundred yards. There were still mines around, but the minefields were found to be sparsely sown. The quickened pace allowed the Scots Guards and tanks to cover the ground much more quickly. The ground towards the air strip was generally open, so the Italians hadn’t made any great efforts to defend the indefensible. A company of 1 DLI with the Regiment’s carrier platoon was protecting the southern flank, south of the wadi along which the route being followed by the main force.
It was late afternoon when the tanks and men arrived at the deserted airstrip. There were signs of former use, and many craters from previous visits by the RAF. The plan was to stop for the night, to allow the rest of the Battalion to catch up, and for the tanks to refuel and re-arm. C Squadron would take over the push the next day with the men of 3CG. By the end of operations on the first day, only three men had been killed in action, another ten wounded, mostly to landmines.
Unlike 6th BN RTR, the 7th Hussars hadn’t experimented with plough attachments. Progress up the main coastal road was therefore slower. The area between the road and the coast also had to be cleared, which 1 A&SH were responsible for. As the first day of Operation Crusader concluded the progress was just over five miles from the start lines. One tank had been disabled by a mine, losing its track. Six men had been killed and another twenty wounded. The majority of the casualties had resulted from a well-planned ambush which had caught a platoon of 1 A&SH out in the open.
Indeed. I wonder how long it will take to put the airstrip back into commission.
I do hope that the British land troops near the Tunisian border, and turn the whole thing into the Axis' swan song.
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I know the Allied Navy has turned the Med into a British lake effectively even more so than OTL but do they have the ability to lift the troops required to cut the main road between the remaining Axis controlled areas and Tunisia.
They definitely don't have the equipment or doctrine to successfully do a major over the beach assault against opposition at this point. That does not mean they can't land a blocking force on an undefended spot to act as a blocking force against disorganised and broken Axis units attempting to flee. But if the Axis surprise them by putting up a fight it will not end well.
As I read it, they were due to receive (as of post #1063) two LSTs (Landing Ship Tanks), and five LSIs (Landing Ship Infantrys) in addition to the three LSIs already in theatre. Maybe not enough for a landing against serious opposition, but I doubt the Axis forces will have anything more than monitoring posts at, say, Zuwara.
I have to wonder, how many Italian units are still even willing to fight? High command is not sending them any support, they are left to wither on the vine. Their German allies talked a big game, lost and tried to shift all blame unto the Italian forces. The British are at this point probably known to be very good when it comes to treating POWs well. The men willing to die for their country have already had plenty of opportunities, so how many are left?
I think defeat in this battle will probably push them to that point. The obvious question is what's happening at home? That said Italy as a whole trying to turn its coat would probably not go well right now, probably even worse than OTL 1943 as there is no way Britain can get enough back up into Italy fast enough to avoid an occupation.
I think right now a lot of units are more than likely going to start putting down their guns except for maybe the most rabid blackshirt supporter or Nazis amongst them. Right now morale is equally bad amongst both German and Italian units though, for different reasons, I also think the germans may be in shock since they probably thought this would be a walkover like how the perceive Greece and France as well as Norway though Norway was a disaster from the start.
For the survivors though of both sides, this is going to be a damned nasty hit to them as well as the confidence of those in the know and has brought Britain and the Commonwealth much needed breathing room by closing one front earlier than OTL.
For the survivors though of both sides, this is going to be a damned nasty hit to them as well as the confidence of those in the know and has brought Britain and the Commonwealth much needed breathing room by closing one front earlier than OTL.
The irony here being that Rommel (the man in charge here) suffered a nasty setback by the British in France. As to Greece, nah, that wasn't a walkover by any standards.
That breathing room is soon going to be taken up by the Japanese. Fortunately, the Japanese aren't in the same ballpark of tough as the Germans, if their first attack falters, their whole strategy comes apart.