Sir John Valentine Carden Survives. Part 2.
- Thread starter allanpcameron
- Start date
So just sending the machine tools and instructors wouldn't be enough? Pity.
The Sowjets might be able to mount their 57 mm anti-tank gun M1943 (production OTL began on 1 June 1941, but was stopped 1 December 1941 until June 1943 due to concerns of overpenetration shots on German tanks) in place of the 6-pounder the upgraded version of the Valiant would field (both guns are fairly close in size to each other).
Mark1878
Donor
They could but why? The 6pdr is about the same so why take the extra time and what do you do with the extra 6pdrs?
The 75mm might make tactical sense but again what do you do with the 6pdrs?
Mainly because the gun and it's ammunition can be produced locally (in Russia) without anything being imported from either the UK or US and I doubt the brits would ship the Sowjets the new 6-pounder version of the Valiant but rather the older version with the smaller (older) gun. So the Sowjets designing and building a turret for their own gun might make sense.
Mark1878
Donor
In OTL Russia just used Matilda II with the 2pdr so I see no reason they would do any regunning here.
From Googling for Matildas in Russia I found https://tanks-encyclopedia.com/ww2/soviet/matilda-ii-in-soviet-service with the ontopic
and the more interesting
It depends what's available. I think a lot of the 2-pounder Valiants have already been deployed, meaning that it's likely there's only 6-pounder Valiants to send.
An interesting article about Valentines in Russia here - https://thedailybounce.net/historical/valentine-ix-a-tank-destroyer-with-claws/
I dont think a single tank factory in the UK would be such a good idea for a number of reasons.
A single factory, if bombed, would stop tank production (come to that, so would a strike!).
Tanks and their components are big, heavy things; you cant easily build or modify the infrastructure outside of the factory to expand this.
The idea is good, but I would suggest having, say, 3 locations and sending the components there. A little more complex to organise supply, but it would just be setting up the assembly lines in more that one place, a single megafactory would have multiple assembly lines anyway. As long as the supply situation is handled well, it would be as efficient as a single factory
A single factory, if bombed, would stop tank production (come to that, so would a strike!).
Tanks and their components are big, heavy things; you cant easily build or modify the infrastructure outside of the factory to expand this.
The idea is good, but I would suggest having, say, 3 locations and sending the components there. A little more complex to organise supply, but it would just be setting up the assembly lines in more that one place, a single megafactory would have multiple assembly lines anyway. As long as the supply situation is handled well, it would be as efficient as a single factory
Agreed. Another consideration is the space available. America has large amounts of open areas that they can build large-scale tank factories on, while it is a lot harder to do the same in Britain, while also having access to the workforce needed.
And also, as Astro points out, if bombed, production would be significantly reduced/stopped altogether, and it is a lot easier to bomb a factory in Britain than it is in America
marathag
Banned
Build it near Blackpool, then a resort area.
Well served with railroad access, just the thing for a US style Detroit Tank Arsenal to serve as a final assembly point, and it's far from German bombers
[Immediately imagines visiting Blackpool Tower and Blackpool Tank Museum in one trip]
My thinking is, a huge tank plant actually has multiple assembly lines, so as long as the total number of lines is the same, so is the production. Its little more complicated moving the components around, but not terrible. Also. a limiting factor would be the houseing available for the workers - at this point in time, it was usually supplied by the local councils. And there probably isnt a huge amount of free space to buld housing, unlike the USA.
marathag
Banned
That's why Bkackpool is ideal, facilities for large number of visitors.
I believe at the time, could host a quarter million vacationers.
They never bombed Blackpool. I don't know why, but no known military targets might be a decisive factor. Worth putting a grass roof garden on your factory? The spans should be wide enough to allow assembly of 60ft wingspan aircraft (twin engine fighters, Mosquitoes) if need be. A Royal Ordinance Factory shouldn't be too specialised. It might end up building tank landing craft.
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20 July 1941. Salisbury Plain, England.
allanpcameron
Donor
20 July 1941. Salisbury Plain, England.
The men of 1st Canadian Army Tank Brigade had arrived by sea at Greenock on 30 June. Most of them arrived at their new camp at West Lavington Down, and then, having set it up, were given their disembarkation leave, reporting back on 14 July. While the tented camp was reasonably comfortable, though short of bathing facilities, the men knew that any heavy rain would likely make things very difficult.
Their Valiant Mark IA* tanks had arrived in the slow section of their convoy. Once the tanks had been unloaded, a cadre of NCOs had stayed on to supervise the removal of everything that had been used to make them waterproof for sailing across the Atlantic. They had also to try to make sure that nothing went ‘missing’ between shipping and arrival at Salisbury Plain. Once this had been done, the tanks had been loaded onto flat cars, and moved by a number of trains to Lavington Station.
The tanks for the 14th Armoured Battalion Canadian Armoured Corps (Calgary Regiment (tank), arrived first, followed by those belonging to the 11th Armoured Battalion CAC (The Ontario Regiment (Tank)). Lastly, the Valiant IA*s of 12th Armoured Battalion CAC (The Three Rivers Regiment (Tank)) were driven off the trains and brought to the Brigade’s camp. The last few days had been hectic for all of the men, getting their tanks ready for the exercise that was about to begin.
The tanks had all been built in Montreal by the Angus Shops of the Canadian Pacific Railway Company, and the Brigade had the first 166 tanks off the assembly line. As the Canadian 1st Army Tank Brigade were shipping out of Camp Borden, the 5th Canadian Armoured Division was taking delivery of the tanks at a rate of seventy-five per month. The expectation was that the 5th Armoured Division would ship over to Britain towards the end of 1941.
The British 31st Tank Brigade (9 Bn RTR, 10 Bn RTR) was still undergoing training, and were waiting for a third Battalion to complete the Brigade. Equipped with Matilda II Infantry Tank Mark IIs, this unit would play the opposing force against the Canadians in the exercise. The 38th (Welsh) Division provided two of its infantry Brigades (113th and 114th) to take part in the exercise, one on each side. General Andrew McNaughton had arrived from London, as Commander of Canadian forces in Britain, to watch his first armoured formation in action. He was joined by General Sir John Dill, Chief of the Imperial General Staff, who was as curious about the readiness of the Canadian Tank Brigade as McNaughton was. The first action of the Canadian 1st Army Tank Brigade was therefore to pass in formation before Dill and McNaughton, and then to be inspected by them. Once that was done, the exercise could begin in earnest.
The men of 1st Canadian Army Tank Brigade had arrived by sea at Greenock on 30 June. Most of them arrived at their new camp at West Lavington Down, and then, having set it up, were given their disembarkation leave, reporting back on 14 July. While the tented camp was reasonably comfortable, though short of bathing facilities, the men knew that any heavy rain would likely make things very difficult.
Their Valiant Mark IA* tanks had arrived in the slow section of their convoy. Once the tanks had been unloaded, a cadre of NCOs had stayed on to supervise the removal of everything that had been used to make them waterproof for sailing across the Atlantic. They had also to try to make sure that nothing went ‘missing’ between shipping and arrival at Salisbury Plain. Once this had been done, the tanks had been loaded onto flat cars, and moved by a number of trains to Lavington Station.
The tanks for the 14th Armoured Battalion Canadian Armoured Corps (Calgary Regiment (tank), arrived first, followed by those belonging to the 11th Armoured Battalion CAC (The Ontario Regiment (Tank)). Lastly, the Valiant IA*s of 12th Armoured Battalion CAC (The Three Rivers Regiment (Tank)) were driven off the trains and brought to the Brigade’s camp. The last few days had been hectic for all of the men, getting their tanks ready for the exercise that was about to begin.
The tanks had all been built in Montreal by the Angus Shops of the Canadian Pacific Railway Company, and the Brigade had the first 166 tanks off the assembly line. As the Canadian 1st Army Tank Brigade were shipping out of Camp Borden, the 5th Canadian Armoured Division was taking delivery of the tanks at a rate of seventy-five per month. The expectation was that the 5th Armoured Division would ship over to Britain towards the end of 1941.
The British 31st Tank Brigade (9 Bn RTR, 10 Bn RTR) was still undergoing training, and were waiting for a third Battalion to complete the Brigade. Equipped with Matilda II Infantry Tank Mark IIs, this unit would play the opposing force against the Canadians in the exercise. The 38th (Welsh) Division provided two of its infantry Brigades (113th and 114th) to take part in the exercise, one on each side. General Andrew McNaughton had arrived from London, as Commander of Canadian forces in Britain, to watch his first armoured formation in action. He was joined by General Sir John Dill, Chief of the Imperial General Staff, who was as curious about the readiness of the Canadian Tank Brigade as McNaughton was. The first action of the Canadian 1st Army Tank Brigade was therefore to pass in formation before Dill and McNaughton, and then to be inspected by them. Once that was done, the exercise could begin in earnest.
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