Sir John Valentine Carden Survives. Part 2.

[CB13]

Could the RN have put surveillance radar on something the size of a Fairmile D Torpedo Boats? Or would you need to move up to something the size of a modernized version of the WW1 D-Class?

All I'm thinking is having a group of small fast patrol vessels all along the East Coast of Malaya (and possibly stumbling further North from time-to-time), might make a great trip wire.

It also probably would've been good around Borneo, Suez, etc.... although likely not suitable for rougher seas around the British Isles.

 

[MattII]

You probably could, but the range would be fairly abysmal for surface-search purposes, the vessel not being that big.

 

[vetinari]

D Boats were fitted with search radar later in the war. Their surface range was relatively short but their air range was quite good. It's presence on the boats was quite decisive in many battles where they were able to site enemy craft at ranges beyond what they could see with the naked eye.

 

[Sqdn19]

Will probably depend on when and were they catch the convoy like best chances for Force Z I think would be catching the convoy in a night action.

Certainly possible. The IJN would be unlikely to shy away from a night action, ditto for the RN. I’d have thought the Asiatic fleet would have been gung-ho, too. At least until it all started to go horribly wrong.

I keep seeing this stated that the IJN were specialists in nigh fighting as if they alone thought of it.

The RN trained heavily in nigh fighting techniques prewar, and carried on in night actions throughout the early part of the war in the North Sea and the Med.

At this point in the war the IJN are superior to the USN in night fighting but the RN is every bit as prepared for night actions as the IJN.

I quite agree: I’d argue Cape Matapan was just as much as a naval victory as 1st Guadalcanal could have been for the IJN.
What were the Dutch like for night engagements?

 

[MattII]

D Boats were fitted with search radar later in the war. Their surface range was relatively short but their air range was quite good. It's presence on the boats was quite decisive in many battles where they were able to site enemy craft at ranges beyond what they could see with the naked eye.

I'm given to understand it was also pretty easy to swap the weapon loadouts too.

 

[vetinari]

I'm given to understand it was also pretty easy to swap the weapon loadouts too.

The RAN operated D Boats out of Darwin armed with two single Bofors 40mm on the stern and a 6 Pounder on the bow, plus two single .50in each side of the bridge. They were perhaps the heaviest armed of the D Boats. My father remarked about them several times (he served in the Northern Territory during the war).

 

[MattII]

The RAN operated D Boats out of Darwin armed with two single Bofors 40mm on the stern and a 6 Pounder on the bow, plus two single .50in each side of the bridge. They were perhaps the heaviest armed of the D Boats. My father remarked about them several times (he served in the Northern Territory during the war).

Wikipedia quotes a possible loadout of two 6-pounder, four Oerlikons (one twin and two singles) and a couple of Vickers Ks, plus light depth charges, a searchlight and a smoke generator.

 

[vetinari]

Wikipedia quotes a possible loadout of a 6-pounder, 4 Oerlikons (1 twin, 2 singles) and a couple of Vickers Ks, plus light depth charges, a searchlight and a smoke generator.

You missed the point in Wikipedia, "sample armament" and that of a RN MGB, not an RAN MGB...

 

[Look More Closely Later]

No, the two battalions had been at Kuching, then withdrew to Pontianak where they were picked up by Force Z and brought to Balikpapan.

(edit: Thanks. )
I re-read the January 12th, 1942 post several times ( https://www.alternatehistory.com/fo...e-carden-survives-part-2.520866/post-23722578 ) and I think I understand what's going on (at least for now). No further word for the Allies from 2/15th Punjab Regiment, I take it?

 

[MattII]

You missed the point in Wikipedia, "sample armament" and that of a RN MGB, not an RAN MGB...

Hey, I did say the weapon loadout was fairly easy to change.

 

[Cryhavoc101]

I keep seeing this stated that the IJN were specialists in nigh fighting as if they alone thought of it.

The RN trained heavily in nigh fighting techniques prewar, and carried on in night actions throughout the early part of the war in the North Sea and the Med.

At this point in the war the IJN are superior to the USN in night fighting but the RN is every bit as prepared for night actions as the IJN.

Exactly - Cape Mattapan anyone?

The Japanese might very well have trained for it

The British had fought and dominated in it

 

[diestormlie]

Wikipedia quotes a possible loadout of a 6-pounder, 4 Oerlikons (1 twin, 2 singles) and a couple of Vickers Ks, plus light depth charges, a searchlight and a smoke generator.

Oh, that's it, is it?

 

[MattII]

Oh, that's it, is it?

It prefixes that with "Sample armament for gunboat configuration as fitted to Dog 658 by the end of the war", and mentions in the article that weapons could be switched out fairly easily. Also, I misread the wikipedia page, the given configuration featured two 6-pounders (single mountings), not one*. Various pages also quite options to mount 2-pounder guns and 0.5" AA guns. Add in the 40mm Bofor noted by @vetinari and you have at least a half-dozen different calibres, not to mention torpedoes, depth charges and other assorted equipment fitted to various units. The Fairmile D was a really versatile little craft, wasn't it?

* Original post edited.

 

[wietze]

Could the RN have put surveillance radar on something the size of a Fairmile D Torpedo Boats? Or would you need to move up to something the size of a modernized version of the WW1 D-Class?

All I'm thinking is having a group of small fast patrol vessels all along the East Coast of Malaya (and possibly stumbling further North from time-to-time), might make a great trip wire.

It also probably would've been good around Borneo, Suez, etc.... although likely not suitable for rougher seas around the British Isles.

View attachment 800813

how about on a flower class? decent numbers around of those

 

[Ramp-Rat]

how about on a flower class? decent numbers around of those

At this point in the war, every Flower Class available is needed in the Atlantic, which is very soon thanks to the American declaration of war against Germany, going to become a much more bloody campaign. Until the U-boat campaign has effectively been brought under control, and made manageable, diverting desperately needed escorts from the Atlantic to act as radar pickets in the South China Sea, is not going to happen.

RR.

 

[kelgar04]

At this point in the war, every Flower Class available is needed in the Atlantic, which is very soon thanks to the American declaration of war against Germany, going to become a much more bloody campaign. Until the U-boat campaign has effectively been brought under control, and made manageable, diverting desperately needed escorts from the Atlantic to act as radar pickets in the South China Sea, is not going to happen.

RR.

Would the fact the War in Africa against the Axis has essentially been won at this point with the Italians colonies effectively being gutted and Crete being held take some pressure off the need for escorts to some degree?

I mean they can cover the possible concoy routes by air pretty effectively with them holding fields in Libya, Malta and Crete. Also with the Italian navy being effectively out of action by this point in the war it must have taken some of pressure off escorts.

 

[Ramp-Rat]

Would the fact the War in Africa against the Axis has essentially been won at this point with the Italians colonies effectively being gutted and Crete being held take some pressure off the need for escorts to some degree?

I mean they can cover the possible concoy routes by air pretty effectively with them holding fields in Libya, Malta and Crete. Also with the Italian navy being effectively out of action by this point in the war it must have taken some of pressure off escorts.

The Mediterranean is not the Atlantic, and at the moment few convoys are passing through the Mediterranean, they are still going the long way around the Cape to and from the Far East. While there is a major gap in air cover in the Atlantic, and the Germans will have started their submarine operations of the American Eastern Seaboard. Which IOTL required the transfer of a number of British ships to the USN to help provide escorts, which included, including 10 Flower Class Corvettes, along with other vessels. The Battle of the Atlantic, was always the most important campaign that the RN fought, and it wasn’t IOTL brought under control until mid 1943, and so early 1942, there is no way that the British will be diverting desperately needed ships from this campaign to the Far East.

RR.

 

[kelgar04]

The Mediterranean is not the Atlantic, and at the moment few convoys are passing through the Mediterranean, they are still going the long way around the Cape to and from the Far East. While there is a major gap in air cover in the Atlantic, and the Germans will have started their submarine operations of the American Eastern Seaboard. Which IOTL required the transfer of a number of British ships to the USN to help provide escorts, which included, including 10 Flower Class Corvettes, along with other vessels. The Battle of the Atlantic, was always the most important campaign that the RN fought, and it wasn’t IOTL brought under control until mid 1943, and so early 1942, there is no way that the British will be diverting desperately needed ships from this campaign to the Far East.

RR.

I probably wasn’t clear but what I was thunking without the need to run fast convoys through the Med as well as need to supply active operations in the Med won’t that mean more escorts for the work in the Atlantic to hunt down Uboats.

 

[CB13]

how about on a flower class? decent numbers around of those

My only issue is I was thinking of something faster both to maximize effective patrol area and to maximize ability to escape as the vessel would have no capacity to stand-and-fight should the Japanese show up. I would add that these patrols (with radar) would focus on darting into areas of concern at night before darting back to safety in early morning as daytime patrols could be conducted by patrol aircraft.

 

[wietze]

My only issue is I was thinking of something faster both to maximize effective patrol area and to maximize ability to escape as the vessel would have no capacity to stand-and-fight should the Japanese show up. I would add that these patrols (with radar) would focus on darting into areas of concern at night before darting back to safety in early morning as daytime patrols could be conducted by patrol aircraft.

for that it is probably easier to equip catalinas with radar (as was done otl)