Shame, the Black Prince had potential. It needed the Meteor engine but other than that seems to have been sound. It would have done well in Korea.
Sir John Valentine Carden Survives. Part 2.
- Thread starter allanpcameron
- Start date
As far as the second half of the war I think that's an outdated view, by 1943 and right through to the end of the war an average* British or American rifle section/squad was younger, fitter, healthier, better equipped, better trained and often better motivated and in equal or fair fights man for man overmatched their German equivalent. However that was disguised by the nature of the fighting that the Western Allies were doing post Tunisia. A German squad built around the MG-42 with a radio link to a mortar section in the bottom of a bocage hedgerow, on the top of an Italian hill or on the edge of a flooded polder in the Scheldt estuary could hold up and inflict casualties disproportionate to their underlying quality and scaled up this applied to Divisions and Armies. But there's a lot more to combat than that sort of defensive fighting and the German's ability to carry out offensive operations or manoeuvre at scale was by the late war severely limited.
A British Division unsupported would have a hard time battering through a dug in German Division occupying the sort of terrain that the Germans were in OTL occupying, they would need the support of an Army Tank Brigade or a Corps level Army Group Royal Artillery to make headway with acceptable casualties. However in anything other than the most specific of circumstances if a German Division had tried to attack a dug in WAllied force of comparable size post 1943 it wouldn't have been a case of unacceptable casualties, they would have splattered like an egg thrown against a wall.
On the broader point the British Commonwealth could have at realistic maximum effort** have put a 30-35 Division force ashore on mainland Europe, at the cost of no further offensive action in the Med and simply holding the Malay Barrier in the Far East. It is very unlikely that the Germans could have thrown that force into the sea but equally it wasn't going to be driving to the Elbe in 11 months. But it could have sat in Northern France and in combination with the Red Army in the East and Bomber Command above attrited the Germans to defeat but over a considerably longer period than the OTL North-West Europe Campaign and a much higher price in blood. Britain and the Dominions obviously didn't want to pay that price so the political necessity was and will be getting 50 Divisions from the US which in combination with 15-20 Commonwealth Division*** and under a US Supreme Command can probably defeat Germany a year after they land. But different political circumstances will make accepting US command much harder which in practice will still mean a US Supreme Command but a much weaker one with the Allies fighting more like how the British and French fought on the Western Front in the first half of the First World War i.e. as two separate armies with separate "tails" and relatively loose coordination.
*The German's fondness for elite Divisions meant that this didn't apply to Leibstandarte or Grossdeutschland, but that drawing off of high quality manpower just made the generic Infantry Divisions worse and that's before you even consider the Ost-Battalion or static Divisions.
**i.e. without reducing their standards for conscription to the level that the Germans did and importing millions of slaves to take their places in factories
***i.e. roughly the same as OTL's 18 Divisions but leaving 15 Divisions in the Med the same as in OTL plus another 10 non-Indian Divisions in the Far East, i.e. considerably more than OTL, without a Malaya catastrophe and with nothing else to do while US forces build up an invasion of Thailand or continued fighting on Borneo will be politically unavoidable and once the commitment has been made pulling troops out to send them to Europe will be easier said than done.
Mayby, but after the end of WWII, there should be enough rubber on the market, to pad the track and wheels (instead of metal on metal) with rubber and this quieter.
Hello,
Some projects that will never see the light of day ITTL...
tanks-encyclopedia.com
However, would a need for a heavy tank with a large gun (17 pdr or 90mm) still exist for the British Army for the duration of the war, but not approaching that of OTL Joseph Stalin or King Tiger?
Some projects that will never see the light of day ITTL...
A.39, Heavy Assault Tank, Tortoise - Tank Encyclopedia
The Tortoise was one of the heaviest tanks Britain ever built, armed with a potent 32-Pounder gun, it had up to 230mm of armor.
tanks-encyclopedia.com
T28 Super Heavy Tank (Gun Motor Carriage T95) Self-Propelled Gun / Heavy Tank Prototype Specifications and Pictures
Detailing the technical specifications, development, and operational history of the T28 Super Heavy Tank (Gun Motor Carriage T95) Self-Propelled Gun / Heavy Tank Prototype including pictures.
www.militaryfactory.com
However, would a need for a heavy tank with a large gun (17 pdr or 90mm) still exist for the British Army for the duration of the war, but not approaching that of OTL Joseph Stalin or King Tiger?
True, but it's still an outdated design.
On another note, if Malaya holds, would it be possible to sustain the troops on the Bataan Peninsula and Corregidor for longer by running supplies in via submarine? A single Tambor class submarine ought to be able to load about 35 tonnes of supplies in place of her torpedoes after all.
Mark1878
Donor
I think they will see the light of day.Hello,
Some projects that will never see the light of day ITTL...
A.39, Heavy Assault Tank, Tortoise - Tank Encyclopedia
The Tortoise was one of the heaviest tanks Britain ever built, armed with a potent 32-Pounder gun, it had up to 230mm of armor.T28 Super Heavy Tank (Gun Motor Carriage T95) Self-Propelled Gun / Heavy Tank Prototype Specifications and Pictures
Detailing the technical specifications, development, and operational history of the T28 Super Heavy Tank (Gun Motor Carriage T95) Self-Propelled Gun / Heavy Tank Prototype including pictures.www.militaryfactory.com
However, would a need for a heavy tank with a large gun (17 pdr or 90mm) still exist for the British Army for the duration of the war, but not approaching that of OTL Joseph Stalin or King Tiger?
In the article you point to it says the reason for requesting the design is "Its goal was to clear fortified areas such as the Siegfried Line so its configuration largely favored armor over mobility."
Now I don't think that anything has happened so far in TTL to change the thought processes that such a heavy tank is needed. Noone on either side has yet assaulted a heavily defended line. All the successes have been done by mobility going around the side of these and against what the British and Germans would think of as less powerful armies. If the Germans have time to build defences then something would be needed.
I think that what has happened is that the idea of the infantry tank in Tank Brigades has gone but the specialist heavy tank has not been seen yet so it hasn't been shown not to work.
Think of these tanks as being possibly used as one of the funnies of 79th Armoured Division. In practice a Churchill AVRE was sufficient.
Now we know now that the Germans won't be able to do this but as noted a tank takes over a year to develop so designers have to think about what might happen and there will be designs that get to prototype that are found not to be needed.
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Black Prince would have been produced if the war went on, but otherwise it was very cursed.
The slow speed, reliability concerns and layout problems of Churchill meant it was not considered as a 17pdr platform in 1942 or 1943 unlike the A27 series, when it could have time to be fielded in 1944. A43 only started in December 43/mid 44 when by then it was far too late to put it in service.
Even with the Meteor, the extent of the redesign and the lack of suspension fixes meant that the British were better off using the A33 family to carry the 17pdr with heavy armor. Indeed both A37 and A40 (uparmored A30) were designed fir this role. These platforms wouldn't be fielded any later but were more future-proof at least (suspension/layout-wise).
This doesn't remove the fact that Black Prince had excellent ergonomics and had the best ergos and turret of any British 17pdr tank until Centurion, but it was both not progressice enough and too late to have a chance.
In any case, 17pdr ballistics were very much sought after. The ITTL Vickers 75/3" doesn't change that calculus as even OTL the British wanted both an intermediary gun for normal tanks (8, 10pdr, 75 HV, 77 HV) AND a 17pdr for tank busting in more limited numbers. 17pdr was not contemplated as the main gun for all tanks until late in 1944/45, as even Centurion was tested and contemplated with a 77mm HV. The ITTL Vickers gun fills the main gun role but doesn't fit the special tank buster role.
The slow speed, reliability concerns and layout problems of Churchill meant it was not considered as a 17pdr platform in 1942 or 1943 unlike the A27 series, when it could have time to be fielded in 1944. A43 only started in December 43/mid 44 when by then it was far too late to put it in service.
Even with the Meteor, the extent of the redesign and the lack of suspension fixes meant that the British were better off using the A33 family to carry the 17pdr with heavy armor. Indeed both A37 and A40 (uparmored A30) were designed fir this role. These platforms wouldn't be fielded any later but were more future-proof at least (suspension/layout-wise).
This doesn't remove the fact that Black Prince had excellent ergonomics and had the best ergos and turret of any British 17pdr tank until Centurion, but it was both not progressice enough and too late to have a chance.
In any case, 17pdr ballistics were very much sought after. The ITTL Vickers 75/3" doesn't change that calculus as even OTL the British wanted both an intermediary gun for normal tanks (8, 10pdr, 75 HV, 77 HV) AND a 17pdr for tank busting in more limited numbers. 17pdr was not contemplated as the main gun for all tanks until late in 1944/45, as even Centurion was tested and contemplated with a 77mm HV. The ITTL Vickers gun fills the main gun role but doesn't fit the special tank buster role.
This one?
QF 12-pounder 12 cwt naval gun - Wikipedia
en.m.wikipedia.org
Additionally,.any chance you can elaborate on the Vickers story?
12 pdr was a private attempt by Vickers at replacing the 6pdr with a more balanced gun and looks like a long 6pdr without a muzzle brake and a bit wider barrel. Same case necked out to use a 2.75 inches or 69mm projectile. Better AP than US 75 M3, slightly worse HE. It is seen on the Bovington Valentine if I recall.
One would assume the 75 won out because the Americans could provide the projectiles.
Or possibly the director of artillery vetoed it?
12 pdr was a private attempt by Vickers at replacing the 6pdr with a more balanced gun and looks like a long 6pdr without a muzzle brake and a bit wider barrel. Same case necked out to use a 2.75 inches or 69mm projectile. Better AP than US 75 M3, slightly worse HE. It is seen on the Bovington Valentine if I recall.
One would assume the 75 won out because the Americans could provide the projectiles.
Doubt, the Brits were officially designing bespoke calibers before with some 8 and 10pdrs (like 2.5inches and 60mm).
2 December 1941. Tunis, Tunisia.
allanpcameron
Donor
2 December 1941. Tunis, Tunisia.
General Maxime Weygand, was still technically the Delegate-General of The Vichy government in North Africa, and Governor General of Algeria. It was expected that Lieutenant-General Alphonse Juin, currently commander-in-chief of troops in Morocco would succeed him, but as yet, Petain’s government hadn’t yet confirmed this. The pressure from Berlin to bring Weygand back to Metropolitan France was growing, but with the British advances in Italian Libya, it was felt in Vichy, that it was not the right time to change horses.
For his part, Weygand opposed in principle the Parish Protocols agreed between Berlin and Darlan, which allowed for Germans to be based in the French colonies of Senegal, Syria and Tunisia. Worse yet, the Germans expected local French forces to have to come to the defence of these bases against any threat. While he was no admirer of Charles De Gaulle, it was becoming clear that Weygand’s assessment of the British was wrong. He believed that after Dunkirk, like France, Britain would sue for peace to retain their empire. Now that the British Empire forces had all but knocked Italy out of North and East Africa, he was clear that they wouldn’t stop at the border with Tunisia. This would be particularly the case if German forces continued to act against the British from Tunisia.
Weygand recieved a delegation led by Robert Murphy, the American Personal Representative of President Roosevelt. Murphy had brought with him, in great secrecy, General George Catroux. Catroux, when he had resigned as Governor-General of French Indo-China, had declared for the Free French under Charles De Gaulle. Catroux, along with a few others, had been landed from a British submarine and were attempting to persuade the French leadership in North Africa and the Levant, to join the struggle against Germany.
When Murphy had approached Weygand, and managed to get Catroux into the meeting, the American passed on details of a joint agreement between the British Government and the French Government in Exile that Weygand would continue as Governor-General of Algeria and overall Commander-in-Chief of Free French North African forces.
It was obvious to Weygand that if French North Africa broke off from Vichy, then the Germans would occupy the rest of France. Weygand was aware that there were many French officers, not least Alphonse Juin, who felt that the British withdrawal at Dunkirk and the attack on the French Fleet at Mers-el-Kébir, had damaged relations entirely. Their views of De Gaulle were unprintable, and that moving to support him and his “Free French” would be an act of treason.
Catroux and his team informed Weygand that they had previously been in Beirut working to persuade General Henri Dentz, the High Commissioner of the Levant, to throw in with the Free French. With the threat of a British led invasion, Dentz had resisted, but agreed in principle (and in the strictest secrecy) that if Weygand brought North Africa to De Gaulle, he would also switch sides. Catroux had also agreed in principle that those French officers and men who disagreed with the decision to join De Gaulle, would be allowed to be repatriated to France. That same agreement would be made to Weygand’s men.
Weygand was aware that this meeting, and even his consideration of the proposal would have drastic consequences. Before he could make any decision, he would need to consult with Major-General Jean de Lattre de Tassigny, the commander-in-chief of troops in the protectorate of Tunisia. De Lattre already had his forces on the Libya/Tunisia border on alert. His orders were that any Germans or Italians crossing the border were to be peacefully disarmed and interred. If they resisted, then the French forces were to use all means necessary to follow their orders.
Weygand believed it would be best if De Lattre was able to hear for himself the offer that was being made. Robert Murphy, again accompanied by Catroux, visited De Lattre in his Headquarters in Tunis and gave him the same information. On hearing this de Lattre was keen that Weygand should break with Vichy. In his view, the French forces in North Africa and Levant would be a nucleus for a powerful army to regain the liberation of France. De Lattre visited Weygand and made his feeling clear. Weygand reiterated his orders regarding German and Italian forces crossing the Tunisian border. What happened there would influence the decision. If the Germans would accept French sovereignty, then all well and good. If not, if they treated the French forces without respect, then it would become obvious which direction Weygand and French North Africa would take.
The British, in consultation with De Gaulle, had organised that the Royal Navy to bring forward General Paul Legentilhomme’s 1st Independent Free French Brigade, (1e BFL), by sea. The 2nd Free French Brigade was still sitting on the border of Lebanon, ready, with 7th Australian Division and elements of 10th Armoured Division to invade, should Dentz decide not to join the Free French. The ships carrying the French troops were currently holding at Malta, ready to sail to Tunis. Two Battalions of Middle East Commando ('C' and 'D' Battalions) under the command of Colonel Robert Laycock were also prepared to support the Free French forces if necessary.
General Maxime Weygand, was still technically the Delegate-General of The Vichy government in North Africa, and Governor General of Algeria. It was expected that Lieutenant-General Alphonse Juin, currently commander-in-chief of troops in Morocco would succeed him, but as yet, Petain’s government hadn’t yet confirmed this. The pressure from Berlin to bring Weygand back to Metropolitan France was growing, but with the British advances in Italian Libya, it was felt in Vichy, that it was not the right time to change horses.
For his part, Weygand opposed in principle the Parish Protocols agreed between Berlin and Darlan, which allowed for Germans to be based in the French colonies of Senegal, Syria and Tunisia. Worse yet, the Germans expected local French forces to have to come to the defence of these bases against any threat. While he was no admirer of Charles De Gaulle, it was becoming clear that Weygand’s assessment of the British was wrong. He believed that after Dunkirk, like France, Britain would sue for peace to retain their empire. Now that the British Empire forces had all but knocked Italy out of North and East Africa, he was clear that they wouldn’t stop at the border with Tunisia. This would be particularly the case if German forces continued to act against the British from Tunisia.
Weygand recieved a delegation led by Robert Murphy, the American Personal Representative of President Roosevelt. Murphy had brought with him, in great secrecy, General George Catroux. Catroux, when he had resigned as Governor-General of French Indo-China, had declared for the Free French under Charles De Gaulle. Catroux, along with a few others, had been landed from a British submarine and were attempting to persuade the French leadership in North Africa and the Levant, to join the struggle against Germany.
When Murphy had approached Weygand, and managed to get Catroux into the meeting, the American passed on details of a joint agreement between the British Government and the French Government in Exile that Weygand would continue as Governor-General of Algeria and overall Commander-in-Chief of Free French North African forces.
It was obvious to Weygand that if French North Africa broke off from Vichy, then the Germans would occupy the rest of France. Weygand was aware that there were many French officers, not least Alphonse Juin, who felt that the British withdrawal at Dunkirk and the attack on the French Fleet at Mers-el-Kébir, had damaged relations entirely. Their views of De Gaulle were unprintable, and that moving to support him and his “Free French” would be an act of treason.
Catroux and his team informed Weygand that they had previously been in Beirut working to persuade General Henri Dentz, the High Commissioner of the Levant, to throw in with the Free French. With the threat of a British led invasion, Dentz had resisted, but agreed in principle (and in the strictest secrecy) that if Weygand brought North Africa to De Gaulle, he would also switch sides. Catroux had also agreed in principle that those French officers and men who disagreed with the decision to join De Gaulle, would be allowed to be repatriated to France. That same agreement would be made to Weygand’s men.
Weygand was aware that this meeting, and even his consideration of the proposal would have drastic consequences. Before he could make any decision, he would need to consult with Major-General Jean de Lattre de Tassigny, the commander-in-chief of troops in the protectorate of Tunisia. De Lattre already had his forces on the Libya/Tunisia border on alert. His orders were that any Germans or Italians crossing the border were to be peacefully disarmed and interred. If they resisted, then the French forces were to use all means necessary to follow their orders.
Weygand believed it would be best if De Lattre was able to hear for himself the offer that was being made. Robert Murphy, again accompanied by Catroux, visited De Lattre in his Headquarters in Tunis and gave him the same information. On hearing this de Lattre was keen that Weygand should break with Vichy. In his view, the French forces in North Africa and Levant would be a nucleus for a powerful army to regain the liberation of France. De Lattre visited Weygand and made his feeling clear. Weygand reiterated his orders regarding German and Italian forces crossing the Tunisian border. What happened there would influence the decision. If the Germans would accept French sovereignty, then all well and good. If not, if they treated the French forces without respect, then it would become obvious which direction Weygand and French North Africa would take.
The British, in consultation with De Gaulle, had organised that the Royal Navy to bring forward General Paul Legentilhomme’s 1st Independent Free French Brigade, (1e BFL), by sea. The 2nd Free French Brigade was still sitting on the border of Lebanon, ready, with 7th Australian Division and elements of 10th Armoured Division to invade, should Dentz decide not to join the Free French. The ships carrying the French troops were currently holding at Malta, ready to sail to Tunis. Two Battalions of Middle East Commando ('C' and 'D' Battalions) under the command of Colonel Robert Laycock were also prepared to support the Free French forces if necessary.
allanpcameron
Donor
Obviously this is entirely speculative on my part. What is better for Weygand, fighting the British Empire or joining the fight against the Nazis. The occupation of the rest of France will no doubt weigh heavily in the decision, but as I've put in de Lattre's mind, Weygand has a good nucleus for working towards the liberation. Does that butterfly away the Madagascar campaign? Probably, a strong Free French army, equipped by America, adds to the need to have less US Divisions in Europe. But the British holding Malaya means the Japanese have more forces to confront the Americans in the Pacific.
Butterflies everywhere!
Allan
Butterflies everywhere!
Allan
I'm not sure to what extent that it's become evident that the Axis has no intention of actually respecting its treaties with Vichy France (or, well, Vichy) by this point.
I'm presuming the orders talked around in the last paragraph are to intern any retreating Axis forces crossing the border. To give Weygand credit, this is a pretty smart litmus test. If the Axis response is to demand Vichy breach its nominal neutrality and repatriate the Axis forces with all speed and equipment (or even fight to push back the Allies,) then Vichy is doomed regardless.
I'm presuming the orders talked around in the last paragraph are to intern any retreating Axis forces crossing the border. To give Weygand credit, this is a pretty smart litmus test. If the Axis response is to demand Vichy breach its nominal neutrality and repatriate the Axis forces with all speed and equipment (or even fight to push back the Allies,) then Vichy is doomed regardless.
The only neutrality that Vichy can effect is shrugging and going c'est la vie in the face of every new Axis imposition.
As far as I can tell, it was always the Axis plan to simply salami tactics Vichy into nothing.
Edit: Expanding on this, the Axis conception of Vichy France seems, to me, to essentially be 'it exists to keep the French Colonies and Armed Forces out of Allied hands' and also 'it exists to do everything that we tell it to and give us everything that we demand of it.'
And when these two mandates began to conflict, the chronic short-termism of the Axis pushed them into valuing the latter over the former.
This, essentially, makes the dissolution of Vichy inevitable.
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German troops exiting Libya may prefer a nice rest and internment in Tunisia, after the rigours of fighting the British, whilst they wait for Berlin to negotiate their release...
Edit:
The USA and Germany are at peace at the moment (2nd December, 1941) in the timeline... Wild cards here are if the Imperial Japanese start something in the Pacific (above and beyond anything they're already doing), and what Hitler does in response to that.
Edit:
The USA and Germany are at peace at the moment (2nd December, 1941) in the timeline... Wild cards here are if the Imperial Japanese start something in the Pacific (above and beyond anything they're already doing), and what Hitler does in response to that.
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