Sino-Nipponese Alliance?

Is it possible for Japan and China during the early 20th century to ally with each other to combat western imperialism/expansion of Communism instead of at each others throats? If such an alliance is possible, what effect would this have on WWII and Asia?
 
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It would need to take place after WWII to prevent the rise of Communism. Have the US support the ROC more enthusiastically than in OTL, and if the Kuamontiang win, you now have a democratic China as another ally in Asia. This probably causes an American victory in Korea, so no more North Korea
 
It would need to take place after WWII to prevent the rise of Communism. Have the US support the ROC more enthusiastically than in OTL, and if the Kuamontiang win, you now have a democratic China as another ally in Asia. This probably causes an American victory in Korea, so no more North Korea

I've edited it to make it clearer. I'm talking about an alliance before WWII.
 
Have the US support the ROC more enthusiastically than in OTL, and if the Kuamontiang win, you now have a democratic China as another ally in Asia.

The Kuomintang? They were about as democratic as the Third Reich and about as militarily competent as Italy, and even more corrupt and inefficient!

They practically drove people into the arms of the communists. You'd need a much different version of the so called Republic of China to accomplish that.
 
The Kuomintang? They were about as democratic as the Third Reich and about as militarily competent as Italy, and even more corrupt and inefficient!

They practically drove people into the arms of the communists. You'd need a much different version of the so called Republic of China to accomplish that.
They can't stay that way for long. Sooner or later, they will have to become as democratic as the ROC is today
 
I've edited it to make it clearer. I'm talking about an alliance before WWII.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!:D:D:D

Sorry about that. The fundamental problem with any alliance was that Japan was one of the Imperialist powers victimizing China. If you're talking about a POD in the 20th century, there is no way that China and Japan will be allies. As for Japan, whichever politician even hinted at an alliance with China that didn't involve China being a feeble slave state would be committing both political and literal seppuku. Anti-Japanese sentiment was also one of the very foundations of Chinese Nationalism under the Kuomintang, and I'd bet Chaing Kai-Shek would rather eat his own feces than even consider an alliance with Japan (well, there was that craven traitor Wang Jingwei who spread defeatism within the Kuomintang before defecting to head the collaborationist regime during WWII).
 
They can't stay that way for long. Sooner or later, they will have to become as democratic as the ROC is today

That's like saying that the Third Reich could have lasted. They Koumintang was more likely to fall apart from inter-faction fighting than it was to go democratic. They were hardline militarists who were deeply unpopular in their own country and at best had a tenuous control over the interior.

In short, not gonna happen without significant bloodletting and possible balkinization. The latter is especially likely in the case of Tibet and Xingiang and whatever warlords decide to carve a slice out for themselves.
 
I've edited it to make it clearer. I'm talking about an alliance before WWII.


I agree with Bmao. There is chance in 20th century. Before I also don't think so, since internal dynamic of both countries can't make them Alliance. You need to have common threat (and those Western Imperialists wasn't threat) or should have common interest. There wasn't strong enemy for China and Japan. Only rivals in East Asia was Japan and China, so conflict is inevitable.
Regarding common interest, there could be only one possible intersection of interest, the South East Asia. In order to happen this you need to make Chinese more of maritime power which is impossible. So I don't see any chance of Japan and China become Alliance, unless you make Korea superpower of East Asia and threatening both Japan and China. ( which is more ASB'ish than realistic)
 
Is it possible for Japan and China during the early 20th century to ally with each other to combat western imperialism/expansion of Communism instead of at each others throats? If such an alliance is possible, what effect would this have on WWII and Asia?

I think you can have a short-lived alliance against Russia. It was in the interests of both China and Japan to stop Russian expansion in the Far East.

Perhaps China joins the Russo-Japanese war to try to take back some Russian territory? Oh dear, the "yellow peril" fear would be even greater now that the two yellows have teamed up!
 
I think you can have a short-lived alliance against Russia. It was in the interests of both China and Japan to stop Russian expansion in the Far East.

Perhaps China joins the Russo-Japanese war to try to take back some Russian territory? Oh dear, the "yellow peril" fear would be even greater now that the two yellows have teamed up!

I don't think so. Russian and Japanese conflicted because of Manchuria. If China strong then Russian and Japanese would gang and rip China to take Manchuria.
 
Is it possible for Japan and China during the early 20th century to ally with each other to combat western imperialism/expansion of Communism instead of at each others throats? If such an alliance is possible, what effect would this have on WWII and Asia?

There was a clear chance. But it was just belong to pre-1900:

According to Professor Lei Chia-sheng,[3] Japanese former prime minister Itō Hirobumi (伊藤博文) arrived in China on September 11, 1898, approximately the same time that Kang Youwei invited British missionary Timothy Richard to Beijing. Richard suggested that China should hand over some political power to Itō in order to further push China's reform efforts.[4] On September 18, Richard successfully convinced Kang to adopt his plan in which China would join a federation (合邦) with China, Japan, the United States, and the United Kingdom. It was Richard's (and perhaps also Itō's) ulterior motive to convince China to increasingly relinquish sovereign authority. Kang nonetheless asked fellow reformers Yang Shenxiu (楊深秀) and Song Bolu (宋伯魯) to report this plan to the Guangxu Emperor.[5] On September 20, Yang sent a memorandum conveying this effect.[6] In another memorandum to the Emperor written the next day, Song advocated the formation of a federation and the sharing of the diplomatic, fiscal, and military powers of the four countries under a hundred-man committee.[7] Prof. Lei argues that this plot was the reason why Cixi, who had just returned from the Summer Palace on September 19, decided to put an end to the reforms with the September 21 Coup.

On October 13, following the coup, British ambassador Sir Claude MacDonald reported to his government about the Chinese situation, saying that Chinese reforms had been devastated by Kang and his friends' actions.[8] British diplomat Baurne, who thought Richard to be a plotter, separately claimed in his own report that Kang was a dreamer who had fallen for Richard's convincing arguments.[9] The British and American governments had been largely unaware of the "federation" plot, which appears to have been Richard's own personal idea. The Japanese government might have been aware of Richard's plan, since his accomplice was the former Japanese prime minister, but there is no evidence to this effect yet.

3^ Lei Chia-sheng, Liwan kuanglan: Wuxu zhengbian xintan 力挽狂瀾:戊戌政變新探 [Containing the furious waves: a new view of the 1898 coup], Taipei: Wanjuan Lou 萬卷樓, 2004.

4^ Timothy Richard, Forty-five years in China, Ch. 12.

5^ Kang Youwei 康有為, Kang Nanhai ziding nianpu 康南海自訂年譜 [Chronicle of Kang Youwei's Life, by Kang Youwei], Taipei: Wenhai chubanshe 文海出版社, p. 67.

6^ Yang Shenxiu, "Shandong dao jiancha yushi Yang Shenxiu zhe" 山東道監察御史楊深秀摺 [Palace memorial by Yang Shenxiu, Investigating Censor of Shandong Circuit], in Wuxu bianfa dang'an shiliao 戊戌變法檔案史料 [Archival sources on the history of the 1898 reforms], Beijing: Zhonghua shuju, 1959, p. 15.「臣尤伏願我皇上早定大計,固結英、美、日本三國,勿嫌『合邦』之名之不美。」

7^ Song Bolu, "Zhang Shandong dao jiancha yushi Song Bolu zhe" 掌山東道監察御史宋伯魯摺 [Palace memorial by Song Bolu, Investigating Censor in charge of the Shandong Circuit], in Wuxu bianfa dang'an shiliao, p. 170.「渠(李提摩太)之來也,擬聯合中國、日本、美國及英國為合邦,共選通達時務、曉暢各國掌故者百人,專理四國兵政稅則及一切外交等事。」

8^ Correspondence Respecting the Affairs of China, Presented to Both Houses of Parliament by Command of Her Majesty (London, 1899.3), No. 401., p. 303.

9^ British Foreign Office files (F.O.) 17/1718, September 26, 1898.


A federation with China, Japan, the United States, and the United Kingdom was of course, totally ASB. But IIRC, meanwhile there was also talk of let Itō Hirobumi be Prime minister/Chancellor of China.
 

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Is it possible for Japan and China during the early 20th century to ally with each other to combat western imperialism/expansion of Communism instead of at each others throats? If such an alliance is possible, what effect would this have on WWII and Asia?
Funny that I should post this scenario soon after you ask this question. Not sure just how realistic my scenario is.
 
What about some PoD revolving around the Anhui clique?
In the first decade of the warlord period, they were able to win many battles because thanks to their Japanese-supplied loans, arms, and advisor/trainers. They really shouldn't have lost to the Zhili clique. That they were defeated is, I think, due to the fact that they were demoralized and deletigimized after the May 4th Movement. So we need a way to keep that from happening.

My suggestion would be that the at Versailles, Japan receives only economic rights in Shandong, and the "sovereignty" of the territory is returned to China. This is what the Japanese Empire accepted in 1922, anyway, so I think they would (quite reluctantly) take it. That should cut the heart out of the May 4th Movement. From there, the ideological background of the Anhui clique's fall from grace, and the rise of the KMT, is mostly butterflied.

The Anhui clique has by far the best military, so they unify or near-unify China (the same way that the KMT often did: by getting other warlords alongside, not by conquest). They are something of a Japanese puppet, but not at all like in the Second Sino-Japanese War. They simply pledge to maintain Japanese economic dominance in Manchuria, Shandong, and maybe the northern plains area, and in return they get to rule over China. Japan doesn't have an interest in expanding their control further, since they don't want to risk what they've got. You would probably even see Japanese military assistance against the Communist forces.

There, Japan and China are allies.

Honestly, I think what happened in OTL is a bit unlikely. Japan saw China as simultaneously weak and divided (and therefore ripe to be conquered), but at the same time on the path to unifying and becoming threatening, especially after Chiang marched north and tried to take over Shandong. Push China a little bit in either direction, and all-out war becomes unlikely.
 
This isn't that hard; a successful 1911 Revolution sees a reforming China allied to a liberalizing Japan as the forefront of the anti-colonialist movement.

I admit, this is about as likely as Britain and France forming an enente, the Europeans uniting into a Union, or Americans coming together after 800,000 people died in four years of civil war, but it's not impossible.
 
This isn't that hard; a successful 1911 Revolution sees a reforming China allied to a liberalizing Japan as the forefront of the anti-colonialist movement.

I admit, this is about as likely as Britain and France forming an enente, the Europeans uniting into a Union, or Americans coming together after 800,000 people died in four years of civil war, but it's not impossible.

Only possible thing is support wining side of the 1911 revolution and that side dominate china (no warlords) with the help of Japanese weapon and money. But I don't it will surely trigger conflict with Europeans. So maybe we will have WW II on Asia instead of Europe, China-Japanese Alliance against European Alliance. But I don't see how Japan-China can win this.
 
Only possible thing is support wining side of the 1911 revolution and that side dominate china (no warlords) with the help of Japanese weapon and money. But I don't it will surely trigger conflict with Europeans. So maybe we will have WW II on Asia instead of Europe, China-Japanese Alliance against European Alliance. But I don't see how Japan-China can win this.

Why? Japan alone kicked British ass.
 
Russia gets its shit together in 1905, kicks Japan out of Korea forever.

Japan, China, Germany and very doubtfully Britain become de facto allies in the Far East.
 
Why? Japan alone kicked British ass.

You mean British colony, while Britain fought war in wolrd wide from Europe to Africa to Middle East to SouthEast Asia?

And you think Japan-Sino Alliance could win European Alliance? are you kidding or .....
 
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