Sino-Greek civilization in Dayuan

Here's the incomplete alphabet I made with the rime table for initials (onsets), using Greek and Devanagari:
z5473pK.png

Leftmost column is the characters of the onsets, middle part is the reconstructions by various linguists, numbers are the number of characters with this onset in the rime dictionary Guangyun(1007~8), so may not accurately reflect their number during the time of POD. "無" means "none", but I'm not sure whether this means the zero consonant or that this onset isn't present in this particular reconstruction.

The table comes from the Chinese Wikipedia page of Middle Chinese. There is a page of Phonology During Han Dynasty, however the only source of that table stated that there wasn't sufficient data for phonological reconstruction of onsets from Han era so the pre-Qin onset table was copied, so I didn't use that one.

It's weird that despite Han dynasty was an example of successful nation-building creating a common language and identity, along with great literature output, it's a dark age for Chinese reconstruction; Old Chinese ends with Qin and Middle Chinese starts from Wei/Jin, but no one even bothered to try to tell what happened in between.
 
Plus I don't know if this has been mentioned yet, would the Scythians provide a population base for such a state? What would the ruling elite's religious beliefs be?

According to The History of Dayuan(大宛列傳) from Records of the Grand Historian, when Zhang Qian visited the region around the 120s BC, he concluded that the people of Dayuan and Bactria shared the same culture. However Zhang also wrote that, according to a Bactrian, that people of Shendu, southeast to Bactria, where the climate is hot and wet, is next to a large body of water, and people ride elephants to war, also shared culture with Bactrians. Shendu is associated with Sindhu/India in all Chinese works.

Chinese Wikipedia claimed that Quintus Curtius Rufus claimed that the descendants of the Greek settlers in Central Asia were still speaking Greek at his time. However the citation mentioned only his name but not where in particular, and Curtius wasn't an author known for his accuracy, so this argument isn't really strong, either.

In any case, Scythians were likely not the only people in Ferghana. Zhang wrote that the people of Dayuan farmed wheat and rice (or some generic grain), made wine from grapes, were good with horses, lived in houses and built walled cities, and that their soldiers wielded bow and spear and practiced horse archery. Since Scythians arrived only 50 years before Zhang, the sedentary population could very well be Greeks or an even earlier people.
 
The Scythian's elite I suspect would most likely by Zoroastrian. How ever they may have been far enough out of the Persian sphere even tough they spoke one of the Persian languages that they may have still be practicing the old Aryan religion. If so then their. religion would quickly merge with that of the Greeks.
I'm sure that the locals at that time practiced a mix from pure Olympian to pure Zoroastrianism. Now mix in some of the eightfold way and wait 100 or so years.
 
So I found an event matching the requirement: winter 201/200 BC, Battle of Baideng.
IOTL, Modu Chanyu feigned a rout and lured Han cavalry forces, led by Emperor Gaozu himself, to chase them without waiting for the infantry. When Gaozu's cavalry reached Mount Baideng, he found himself surrounded by Xiongnu forces, and the infantry was unable to relief him without being peppered by horse archers. The envelope lasted for 7 days, and the surrounded Han forces ran out of food and many have lost their fingers to the cold, but Modu was unable to annihilate them either. Gaozu was only able to break siege by bribing Modu's wife to tell Modu that even if he took Han land, a Chanyu shouldn't settle down, so it'd be pointless in the end, and that forces of Modu's collaborator, Han Xin(King of Hán, not the more famous Marquess of Huaiyin of the same name), failed to show up, so fearing that he's betrayed, Modu opened up the envelope and let the Han army retreat.
On his inglorious return, the humiliated Gaozu stayed at the King of Zhao's court for some time. Zhang Ao, King of Zhao and Gaozu's son-in-law, acted very humble and fully abided Gaozu, but the latter acted so obtusely and arrogantly that courtiers of the former urged him to stand up to the latter, which he refused. Later the courtiers plotted an abortive assassination attempt that have themselves killed and their lord stripped of his kingdom.

Potential PoDs:
1: Modu mauled Han army and drank from Gaozu's skull, then proceed to occupy China. While this is perhaps the most direct way, it would be a bit hard for Modu to find collaborators in his conquest as he's nothing but a barbarian invader. Talented people such as Han Xin(marquess) might be reinstated to cope with the threat.
Potential cause of expulsion: nationalist uprising due to the bad blood spilled in the invasion.

2: Gaozu led a costly breakthrough and returned to Chang'an. Perceived to be weaker than IOTL, his attempt to revoke kingdoms result in an rebellion, and Modu would join the fun. In this case, his relatives, King of Zhao (son-in-law), Chu (brother) and Qi (bastard) were unlikely to join the rebellion but everyone else (Kings of Yan, Liang, Huainan, Changsha) might. I assume that Gaozu had the basic wit to not be rude to Zhang Ao without an expeditionary army right outside the city in this scenario. Han Xin would likely be dead by the time Gaozu turn on the landed nobles.
Potential cause of expulsion: Liu clan revival, people view the kings with hostility for bringing in nomad barbarians and causing wars, nostalgia of the peaceful years under early Han.

3. Gaozu was assassinated, Empress Lu proceed to piss off every nobles. A few years later it's discovered that Zhang Ao's courtiers were the assassins, and the Empress launched a punitive war against Zhao. Modu then uses the casus belli "remove Lu, restore order" to invade. The not-so-loyal kings above might fight for Xiongnu or just became de facto independent, Zhao would be fighting Han anyway and the king of Qi was a bastard and hated by Empress Lu, so he might weigh his very own hide and the current domain over the throne that would ever so unlikely to be his. If Han Xin was still alive, it's not impossible to sway him to join the army of Chanyu by offering to reinstate him as the king of either Qi or Chu, both of which he held briefly before being stripped down to a marquess.
Potential cause of expulsion: noble rebellion, powerful kings can't be removed, and one day a Xiongnu emperor happened to be too aggressive or too weak and the nobles ganged upon him.

The top left frame is the situation one year before the PoD, dashed borders are kingdoms, dotted are prefectures.
2007510135629432.jpg

My PC is currently borked and I can't edit the image, so here's the translation:
燕=Yan
赵=Zhao
梁=Liang
韩=Hán
楚=Chu
淮南=Huainan
长沙=Changsha
By the time of Baideng, the following changes had taken place:
齐=Qi was formed by granting the prefectures in modern Shandong to Gaozu's illegitimate son Liu Fei.
韩=Hán was moved to the far northern 雁门 but retained its name.

I may be able to write this part of the story, but my knowledge on Central Asia and India is between null and nihil so someone has to take over when they left China.
 
Since no one's interested in taking this, I decided to give it a try. I haven't done any proper writing after highschool and English isn't my native language, so don't give too much expectation:

January, 200 BC

The Emperor has been pacing restlessly for hours now. His patience is now like the tent around him: too small for a man of his status, and seems to be shrinking every moment. 7, 6, 5, it takes less and less steps to circle the tent, as he paces even faster. The cold has froze off the fingers of many soldiers, but even that isn't enough to cool his head now. He had ordered the guards out of his tent at noon, and that no one is to disturb him without a better way to break through the Xiongnu horde surrounding this mountain.
In another tent, the Emperor's chief adviser, marquess Chen Ping is struggling to sent plan C into motion.
Plan A was to tell the Emperor to give up chasing the Xiongnu army two weeks back, but victory disease had caught up with the Man and the unfortunate Liu Jing, who said it before he did, took the flak head on and is now in a cell block in Guangwu — where he has food other than grass, water other than melted snow, thick walls that protect him from the cold and is not on the Xiongnu chopping board right now — oh the irony.
Plan B was conceived to get themselves out of this mess in one piece. The Emperor only made it to what he is now by being open to suggestions in the face of adversities, and the lethal tactical mistake of pursuing full speed without the infantry cured his victory disease before he committed any irreversible mistakes. The summary of this plan is simple: bribe one of Modu's wives and had her tell Modu to let them go. The execution is far more complex, involving infiltrating the Xiongnu army to the Chanyu's complex at night and snuck back before dawn. It took several skirmishes to complete an unbloodied set of Xiongnu attire, and good luck to have some bribable allied tribesmen instead of Modu's personal guard stand on watch. The message is to state that Chanyu is the lord of the steppe grazing land, while the Emperor only keeps his farmlands that are of little use to nomadic people like the Xiongnu, and woven with Xiongnu pride that they should always be the masters of the steppes on horseback, never sedentary peasants bound to a puny piece of land for life.*
It went smoother than expected, the report from the agent is that the pillow talk did move Modu, who said he will make up his judgement today. As dusk approaches, however, both the Emperor and Chen started worrying for they both knew that they are completely at the Chanyu's mercy. While the soldiers may be willing to fight to the death to have one less barbarian raiding their hometown, they won't last more than a few hours if faced with an all-out assault. Plan C is a crude one: charge down the mountain after dark to link up with the infantry on the other side, anvilling any Xiongnu who stand between them. Though costly, it's the only way to get out alive if Modu is determined to eliminate them. It's not possible to signal the infantry after sunset, so to coordinate an attack at night, a courier must sneak through the enemy line shortly after night falls. But once the order is sent, there's no turning back…
"Marquess! Urgency! You won't believe this even if I said so! Please come out and see it with your own eyes!" The shout of a guardsman outside disrupted his thought, but could it be…
The clamor outside is becoming unbearable for the Emperor. He didn't pay any attention at first, believing that it isn't anything important in this situation, as the guards will pass anything newsworthy to him. As the noise became louder and louder, it soon became unnerving. "I said don't disturb me without a way to get out of here" he speaks to himself, "are they talking about how we are not going out of this place? Else they would've told me!" his mind is strained like the sinew of a cranked crossbow, about to go at anymore pressure. Suddenly, he hears Chen Ping's voice coming from outside the tent. He tries to act calm when Chen entered, and says: "I believe you have a good reason for disturbing the Emperor?" Chen, doing a kowtow, replied: "Your Majesty, reinforcements have arrived from the south, but…" "Go on." Gaozu commands, to which Chen asks the Emperor to see it for himself, as mere words aren't convincing.
Upon seeing what Chen wants him to see, the Emperor collapses like an unstringed marionette, sitting on the dirt without any dignity. Further south of the Han infantry behind the Xiongnu lines, banners of Han Xin, the renegade King of Hán, fly high. Now that the Han infantry is sandwiched too, the last hope of a sally is gone for good.*
Shortly after the sun completely set, Xiongnu couriers delivered the message calling for negotiation, to which Gaozu almost stared them to death, but had no option but accept. The final treaty, sealed the next day, is the biggest humiliation Xiongnu ever did to a Chinese ruler to this point. Leaving out the minor details, the Peace of Baideng consists of these three main articles:
1. Xiongnu and Han, from now on, respects each other's living space. Any Han city occupied by Xiongnu must be returned to Han at once. Similarly, the traditional Xiongnu pasture by the Yellow River, taken by Qin, must be returned to the Xiongnu people, along with all fortifications therewith at once.
2. The Kingdom of Hán is, from now on, no longer a vassal of the Emperor of Han, but a vassal of the Chanyu. Land of the Kingdom of Hán, including thosd ceded to the Chanyu before this treaty, is not to be considered a part of the Empire Han, and any Hán cities occupied by Han must be returned at once.
3. The army of Xiongnu and Hán is responsible of the safety of every man of the Han army until it enters Han territory safely.
Because Modu didn't take any land that wasn't part of Hán before the war, 1&2 basically entitle him to all his conquests, and 3 is essentially parading the Emperor through the cities along the way.
Red is territory firmly Xiongnu before the war, red stripes are the gains in this war. The murky "traditional Xiongnu pasture" is not shown.
UiUfc1t.png
 
Hopeless this story can be continues

Well, polandball-talk is not of helpings...:(

This is what I have planned out so far:
Gaozu basically got marched back by "escorting" Xiongnu troops, totally humiliated. He then vent his anger on Zhang Ao, the King of Zhao as IOTL, but the assassins successfully assassinated him some time after his departure.

Empress Lü took over the de facto power and got really tense with the nobles, especially the King of Qi, bastard of Gaozu. A few years later, she found evidence of the courtiers of Zhao were behind the assassination, and demanded to revoke his land, by force if necessary. This makes the Qi king really nervous, as he fear Lü would continue to march the army further east into Qi after she dealt with Zhao and he used his connections in the court to smuggle Han Xin out, and in return, had him devise a way to secure his position.

I want to let Han Xin to decide to let Modu in in order to remove Lü. I don't know if this would be realistic, but I have given Modu a somewhat good track record: He eliminated Yuezhi and drank from the skull of their king (military prowess and terrifying figure), tricked Gaozu, the man who united China, into an unescapable trap (wit and intrigue). After the PoD, he signed a peace treaty (negotiable and a man of his words), marched Gaozu back, humiliating him (not someone who kills for kill's sake, but political savvy enough to let the defeated Han army be his living propaganda tools), and kept King Xin of Hán on his throne (treats defectors well, respects the Chinese way things work)
 

TFSmith121

Banned
This is a really interesting concept;

is the entry into the Ferghana the river valley coming down from the northwest, south of the lake?

Please keep working on it.

Best,
 
Problem is that I'm not a good writer and I can't really convert an outline into an story.

Xiongnu should be kicked out in a few generations. Mustn't be a nationalistic one, because the exiled Xiongnu wouldn't buy the idea that they are the true China; could be a noble rebellion, then the exiled could say that according to Confucius, vassals should bow to their lord blahblahblah... But the uppity nobles then rebelled blahblahblah... Hence we're the true China blahblahblah...

The downfall of Greco-Bactria could be delayed by saying that Modu devastated Yuezhi harder than IOTL so they became a non-threat for TTL Greeks.
 
Problem is that I'm not a good writer and I can't really convert an outline into an story.

Xiongnu should be kicked out in a few generations. Mustn't be a nationalistic one, because the exiled Xiongnu wouldn't buy the idea that they are the true China; could be a noble rebellion, then the exiled could say that according to Confucius, vassals should bow to their lord blahblahblah... But the uppity nobles then rebelled blahblahblah... Hence we're the true China blahblahblah...

The downfall of Greco-Bactria could be delayed by saying that Modu devastated Yuezhi harder than IOTL so they became a non-threat for TTL Greeks.

Maybe you could find a collaborator?
 

scholar

Banned
Indeed. This TL is now looking for writers for the episodes in China based on the outlines:D. When they move to Central Asia, this TL would then need to be taken over by someone with knowledge of the area as I have none.
I wouldn't mind helping out.
 
Indeed. This TL is now looking for writers for the episodes in China based on the outlines:D. When they move to Central Asia, this TL would then need to be taken over by someone with knowledge of the area as I have none.

For Central Asia, I can help with resources and information.
 
Its a fantastic idea! I've pushed Chinese civilization into Central Asia before and even into a blending with India, but I never once thought about mixing Sinic culture and Hellenistic culture.

I'm curious to see where you go with this.

After living in Xinjiang for two years, I can tell you that there has been quite a bit of mixing between Chinese and Indian civilizations in Central Asia (along with Persian). Why wouldn't it have happened? Sure, the cultures here have developed their own identities, but that's to be expected.
 
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