Sino-Greek civilization in Dayuan

One thing going for the Kushan is they were very open to outside influences and had no real elitist pretensions regarding their cosmopolitan culture. The ultimately conservative and elitist nature of ruling cultures looking towards Hellenistic and Chinese ideals ( at least that is the assumption I'm getting from the OP) may have a rougher ride in governing a traditionally hard to govern region.

To be fair, the Kushan Empire was quite the large entity while what I have planned for the Sino-Hellenistic Dayuan's territorial extent is no more than the Fergana Valley, not in Bactria proper to the south. It's a much smaller native population to lord over than what the Kushans had to contend with, and there are Greeks in Alexandria Eschate. You have several thousands of Xiongnu and Chinese newcomers in Ferqana to make a big imprint on the population and with the presence of the Greco-Macedonians in the major cities, it should not be impossible for the natives to (eventually) assimilate so that future invaders would not wipe away the syncretic Dayuan culture. :D
 
Congratulations on coming up with a fairly plausible idea that hasn't been talked to death and TLed a gajillion times on this site. :) As a bonus, its pretty damn cool! :cool:
 
To be fair, the Kushan Empire was quite the large entity while what I have planned for the Sino-Hellenistic Dayuan's territorial extent is no more than the Fergana Valley, not in Bactria proper to the south. It's a much smaller native population to lord over than what the Kushans had to contend with, and there are Greeks in Alexandria Eschate. You have several thousands of Xiongnu and Chinese newcomers in Ferqana to make a big imprint on the population and with the presence of the Greco-Macedonians in the major cities, it should not be impossible for the natives to (eventually) assimilate so that future invaders would not wipe away the syncretic Dayuan culture. :D

I see. I didn't realize the POD was Ferghana-centric. For some reason, I thought events might move Southwards.
Looking forward to what you do with this...
 
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I see. I didn't realize the POD was Ferghana-centric. For some reason, I thought events might move Southwards.
Looking forward to what you do with this...

That was my mistake. I did think Bactria but went for Fergana, believing it's a more realistic goal for an small-sized invading horde of at most twenty-five thousand Xiongnu and Chinese exiles to seize a new homeland from the steppe nomadic tribe occupying it. Bactria's a much tougher nut to crack, having more cities that would resist the Xiongnu and a larger population to lord over instead of Ferghana's smaller population.


Its a fantastic idea! I've pushed Chinese civilization into Central Asia before and even into a blending with India, but I never once thought about mixing Sinic culture and Hellenistic culture.

I'm curious to see where you go with this.

You know. I would love to read that myself. Would you mind sharing the link with me? I could use something to entertain me while I'm doing design work. I am also grateful for your kind words.

I imagine that Dayuan people mixed chitons with Hanfu as their clothing...

All the more reason to start sketching as soon as time allows. I do like the idea that you suggest. The chiton for me looks a wee bit too long to combine it with hanfu. The exomis would be a better fit, given the climate of Ferghana, and hanfu clothing would need to be looser and smaller for comfort. It'd vary depending on the social class of the individual in question. But I like it!

What would be interesting would be how they form the military.

A Hellenistic core of heavy infantry mixed with steppe-style cavalry with some Chinese trappings, perhaps?

Holy crap. I just had a vision of a Hellenistic phalanx together with horse archers and primitive grenades. God, it's beautiful.

The Dayuan would have an interesting situation for themselves. Upon the migration and conquest by the Xiongnu of the Fergana valley, the Xiongnu and Chinese exile elite would be outnumbered many times by the Greeks and Macedonian settlers, to say nothing of the natives. It's not as bad as if they're ruling over China as they were ITTL. On the other hand, they're not handicapped by their exclusivity in hiring just Xiongnu like the Successor Kingdoms were hampered with the need to keep bringing Greco-Macedonians from Greece proper to replenish their manpower. As they would conquer Fergana from steppe nomads, the Greeks would see them as liberators.

Even if they didn't, manpower would not be an issue. The Dayuan are sitting at the Silk Road. With the riches they'll earn from traders passing by from both east and west, they can pay for the service of mercenaries to come serve in the Dayuan armies for a select period of time. Those who lived and decided to stay can be given a plot of land to settle in exchange for swearing loyalty to the Dayuan monarch and future military service when demanded.

The old Xiongnu equestrian tradition, like lots of steppe nomads, is mainly focused on horse archers to spam the enemy hard and light cavalry to sweep up the remainder of the weakened enemy. Being allies with the Parthians would introduce to Dayuan the important role of cataphracts as shock cavalry. Even though chariots have become not as effective in the age of standard cavalry units, horse archers and crossbow than before, Dayuan scythed chariots are still effective at breaking tight infantry formations and are the preferred choice for commanders to position themselves and move around. Combine that with the crossbow and well things will be bad if you're fighting the Dayuan.

Almost little to no pikemen in the Dayuan army. Phalanx warfare is stiff, immobile and unsuitable to the mountainous landscape of Central Asia.
 
yeah... thinking about it, phalanx formations would be cumbersome in light terrain. Maybe they adopt a more flexible infantry doctrine, perhaps something analogous to the Roman style but in a different direction and manner.

The fact that West meets East just increases my combined arms love. :D
 
That was my mistake. I did think Bactria but went for Fergana, believing it's a more realistic goal for an small-sized invading horde of at most twenty-five thousand Xiongnu and Chinese exiles to seize a new homeland from the steppe nomadic tribe occupying it. Bactria's a much tougher nut to crack, having more cities that would resist the Xiongnu and a larger population to lord over instead of Ferghana's smaller population.

Actually, Manchurian numbered around 300k~600k when they took over China (~100M) so it's not unfeasible that mounted steppe warriors with good understanding of bureaucratic administration to take over a much bigger nation.
 
Actually, Manchurian numbered around 300k~600k when they took over China (~100M) so it's not unfeasible that mounted steppe warriors with good understanding of bureaucratic administration to take over a much bigger nation.

It's not a question of the plausibility of taking over a far more populous nation, it's in how long the conqueror in such circumstances maintains its own distinctive culture. The Manchu became thoroughly Sinicized in short order. Arguably they were well on the path of Sinicization even before they conquered China.
 
I found an Old Chinese and a Middle Chinese reconstructed pronunciations lookup tools. The Old Chinese one is mostly IPA (some superscripts cannot render properly) while the Middle Chinese one is... Whatisthisidonteven. Could be X-SAMPA mixed with other symbols.

This POD seems to be between the two periods so I post them both.
 
Dunno much about it's plausibility, but it sounds AWESOME.

Please more.

A timeline of it ,will be wonderful.

All in due time. I want to do this just right and I'm collecting an assortment of books that will help me refine my vision to something that's cool but within the realm of plausibility. I'm no Jonathan Edelstein but I would like this to try to be on that timeline's level which means me spending days looking up articles and scholarly journals on jstor. Thank you again.

This would, indeed, be one of the best ideas for a TL I've heard in a long time. I'd be especially interested in how they interact with India. At this point in time, Bactria was sort of the crosshairs between three major civilizations (the Middle East, India, and China). With the European influence of OTL coinciding with the Chinese influence that came later OTL, you'd create something truly imaginative and inspiring I think. Basically, a culture where all ancient cultures melt together to create one

In contrast to what I mentioned would be my take on Dayuan relations with China or their ethnic kinsmen in Greece proper, the Dayuan would have much closer diplomatic, economic and political exchanges with the Indo-Greek kingdoms ie diplomatic giving and intermarriage between Dayuan and Indo-Greek royalty to keep "special relationship" going. It'd be like a big sibling to little sibling-type of relationship with the Dayuan viewing the Indo-Greeks as vassals and feeling obligated to protect them from enemies like the Scythians and Sunga dynasty when aid is requested.

The big brother-little brother-type relationship also has another side. Some Indo-Greek rulers are not comfortable with the sway that the Dayuan have over them; think how Latin Americans feel about the dominance of the US in that part of the world, and feel that the Dayuan do overstay their welcome if called upon to send armies into India. The Dayuan kingdom, being incredibly rich due to the Silk Road trade, involves itself in subterfuge and bribery to keep the Indo-Greek kingdoms in line and on their side.

Of course Indians will have a big impact on Dayuan culture especially in the formation of the imperial cult which combines all these different belief systems under a Hindu-esque overcoat.
 
So I did some research on the cities of Dayuan mentioned in Chinese sources:

The Records of the Grand Historian stated that Han once went to war against Dayuan to take a certain breed of strong horses it had, which was kept in a city called 貳師.
Some says that 貳師 (er-shi in Mandarin) is modern Osh, however in Old/Middle Chinese it's likely njis-sri/ni-shi, so there isn't a particularily strong phonological connection; other sources say that it's south west to Osh, in Markhamat, Kyrgyzstan - however I could only find a Markhamat, Uzbekistan in the Ferghana Valley.

The first expedition failed when Han forces were defeated right out of the eastmost Dayuan city called 郁成 (yu-cheng). It would be something like ʔiuk-(d/ʑ)jeng at that time. It is usually associated with Uzgen, which is located at the far eastern end of the Ferghana Valley.

Han defeated Dayuan decisively with the victory of the 40-days-siege of the Dayuan capital 貴山. 貴山 is spelled gui-shan in Mandarin, and reconstruction in Middle and Old Chinese yields kjuəi-sh(æ/ɒ)n and k(j/l)u(d/t)s-sr(ee/ea/ia)n respectively, it's generally identified with modern Khujand, also known as Alexandria Eschate in classical times.

Here's the map:
Sh6pZsn.png


and here's the textless base map I grabbed from Google Map:
VuSOtTh.png


Hope this helps with the settings.:)
 
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Beside Greek, was there any other scripts in the region at that time? Greek alphabets are insufficient for transcribing Middle Chinese, so I used some Sanskrit Devanagari. However I still lack symbols for alveopalatals, voiced sh (zh) and glottal stop.
 
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Beside Greek, was there any other scripts in the region at that time? Greek alphabets are insufficient for transcribing Middle Chinese, so I used some Sanskrit Devanagari. However I still lack symbols for alveopalatals, voiced sh (zh) and glottal stop.

Kharoshti was a major script around now I believe. It was a slightly Hellenized form of the Brahmi script of the rest of the Indian sub-continent.

Plus I don't know if this has been mentioned yet, would the Scythians provide a population base for such a state? What would the ruling elite's religious beliefs be?
 
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Beside Greek, was there any other scripts in the region at that time? Greek alphabets are insufficient for transcribing Middle Chinese, so I used some Sanskrit Devanagari. However I still lack symbols for alveopalatals, voiced sh (zh) and glottal stop.

Kharoshti as mentioned earlier; in addition I would imagine that Pahlavi and other scripts based on Imperial Aramaic may have been around.
 
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