Sino-Greek civilization in Dayuan

[Cuāuhtemōc]

This was a crazy idea that I had in a dream and discussed with a few posters in the other alternate history place a while ago. Let's say that the Xiongnu are a little more luckier and manage to take control of China either during the disintegration of the Qin Empire to the Eighteen Kingdoms or refuse to negotiate a peace settlement with Emperor Gaozu and push forward to seize China from the Han dynasty. As with most nomadic conquerors of China, the Xiongnu Khans assimilate and go native, adopting Chinese culture and language while retaining some loose ties with their humble nomadic roots. In the time that they lord over China, the Xiongnu Empire expands to lands never before penetrated by the Chinese, subjugating the Hellenistic kingdom of Bactria, in an combined push with the Parthians. (China and Parthia were allies IOTL, I don't see why it would be any different)

All empires rise to prominence, stagnate, decline and then fall to obscurity. The Xiongnu are no exception, and they are unseated from power. It doesn't matter how, whether they're unseated by a native Chinese dynast or another group of steppe nomads. The Xiongnu Khan pulls a Yelu Dashi (founder of the Kara Khitan Khanate) and evades capture by the new dynasty, fleeing with thousands of loyalist troops and followers. Using what remaining money and diplomatic goodwill with the Parthians, their forces are bolstered and they make a new homeland in the Fergana Valley, seizing control of the land from the Scythians and Yuezhi tribes. Alexandria Eschate, a cultural hub and smack dab on the Silk Road, is selected as the capital of the new Xiongnu kingdom.

The Xiongnu kingdom in Fergana is made up of a diverse collection of peoples, including native Iranians, urbanized descendants of the Greco-Macedonian colonists planted by Alexander the Great, steppe nomads, as well as Chinese and Sinicized nomads. Having assimilated to Chinese culture and language, the exiled Xiongnu rulers of Fergana continue to use imperial traditions and Confucian administration carried over from China. However, the Xiongnu begin adopting Greek administrative titles like strategos or basileus, using Greek in addition to Chinese on their coins and worshipping Hellenistic (and Iranian) deities like Helios and Ahuramazda along their traditional worship. Veneration of the Buddha is also earning an increasingly larger following as well due to missionary activity from India.

By the first century AD, the Kingdom of Dayuan is acknowledged the westernmost outpost of Chinese culture as well as the easternmost outpost of Hellenistic culture by foreign travelers but it's more than that: the two cultures have fused together to become something neither Greek or Chinese. Time, distance and separation from China and Greece (subjugated by Rome), has made the culture of Dayuan evolve into something distinct. The Kings of Dayuan have combined different systems of tradition and transformed into an organized religion. The following titles are just a collection of what the Magi used to refer to the King of Dayuan:

Son of Heaven
King of Kings
Scion of Yàshù Mǎzìdá
Protector of the Dharma
Strategos

Missionary expeditions are sent out beyond Dayuan on regular intervals, reaching audiences as far as Alexandria, Antioch and Rome. There's not much success in obtaining converts; the emphasis on Dayuan as the center of all civilizations in the world and the King of Dayuan as the world's only legitimate ruler, with everyone else as tributaries or barbarian savages. It understandably repels most people except for a very few. Chinese had left on its mark on the Greek-divergent Dayuan language, itself written in a modified Chinese script, to say nothing of the thousands of loan words peppered in. While most people in the kingdom continue to speak their native languages, Dayuan Greek is the language of the royal court and magi.

How about this for a crazy idea?

 

[Nataraj]

It's awesome. Awesome on every level, and I do mean every level. Please make a timeline of it? Hell, I'd be glad to help if you think you can't do it alone. This just needs to exist.

 

[scholar]

Its a fantastic idea! I've pushed Chinese civilization into Central Asia before and even into a blending with India, but I never once thought about mixing Sinic culture and Hellenistic culture.

I'm curious to see where you go with this.

 

[Herzen's love-child]

Two things:
The Xiongnu must have beaten the Yuezhi to Bactria before the latter have destroyed it, leaving a more intact Greco-Bactrian culture to meld with.

This POD butterflies the Kushan Empire away. A sinocized cosmopolitan polity instead of an indo-scythian cosmopolitan polity. With a greater Greek component in the mix.

 

[ramones1986]

I imagine that Dayuan people mixed chitons with Hanfu as their clothing...

 

[SavoyTruffle]

What would be interesting would be how they form the military.

A Hellenistic core of heavy infantry mixed with steppe-style cavalry with some Chinese trappings, perhaps?

 

[Nataraj]

What would be interesting would be how they form the military.

A Hellenistic core of heavy infantry mixed with steppe-style cavalry with some Chinese trappings, perhaps?

Holy crap. I just had a vision of a Hellenistic phalanx together with horse archers and primitive grenades. God, it's beautiful.

 

[altwere]

Please more.

 

[Al-numbers]

Dunno much about it's plausibility, but it sounds AWESOME.

 

[Xenophonte]

A timeline of it ,will be wonderful.

 

[Errnge]

This would, indeed, be one of the best ideas for a TL I've heard in a long time. I'd be especially interested in how they interact with India. At this point in time, Bactria was sort of the crosshairs between three major civilizations (the Middle East, India, and China). With the European influence of OTL coinciding with the Chinese influence that came later OTL, you'd create something truly imaginative and inspiring I think. Basically, a culture where all ancient cultures melt together to create one

 

[TimeJockey]

Man, I'm envious of your dreams! More, please.

 

[ChazMo]

This being a region known for its syncretic tendencies, the development of religious practices is going to be very interesting. I'm having visions of a Hindu-Greek polytheism punctuated with Confucianism, Buddhism and Platonism.

 

[Crusader FG.1]

Interesting! It does some butterflies, but more in my stomach than historical butterfly effect... As the region seems isolated from the main powers (far away to China, Iran and India) and with some luck evading or withstanding nomad raids... I'd really LOVE to see the TL!

One thing: as Kushans accepted Greek script, and as Greek script being easier (simpler) than Chinese, I suppose the alphabet would rather win the "competition". Especially when used to write in Greek or Greek-derivate language.

 

[Practical Lobster]

I agree that alphabetized, or Indic abugidized (I have no idea if that's a word) seems likely. Even if the upper class folks use Chinese characters, a lingua franca seems likely to emerge, and in time be picked up by the bureaucracy, at least if the state survives any great length of time.

This Kingdom is going to have to contend with a lot of population movement and migrations. Which isn't impossible, but it seems likely that each successive wave of peoples who is either assimilated, driven off, or conquers them is going to throw a whole load of butterflies into the equation.

Buddhism, Hinduism, and Iranian folk religions all merge pretty well, especially with a trapping of Greek names and whatnot. Confucianism to me seems less likely to catch on, except maybe in a vague "mandate of heaven" sort of way.

Regardless the Hunno-Sino-Greco-Indo-Irania-Soghdanian society that would emerge out of this would make a fascinating TL!

 

[LeCHVCK]

Write it now. If you refuse you have to expect total annihalation and I write it but if I write it, it will feature Space-Nazis, AH.comtan and Sealions. Please do a timeline

 

[Workable Goblin]

This sounds awesome and extremely interesting, though I can't add much to the plausibility or the discussion of how it would function.

 

[scholar]

I agree that alphabetized, or Indic abugidized (I have no idea if that's a word) seems likely. Even if the upper class folks use Chinese characters, a lingua franca seems likely to emerge, and in time be picked up by the bureaucracy, at least if the state survives any great length of time.

Which begs the question: is the culture that has successfully assimilated and absorbed every single group that stays within its borders unless they flee prematurely capable of being just as pervasive and powerful beyond its borders?

Western Liao is something that you might look at. They are the reason why China was known as Cathay in the West For over a century they maintained Chinese government styles and structures, and they were only semi-sinicized! They were more like the Jurchens of Nurhaci than a Chinese people, so what if they were more Chinese?

 

[Cuāuhtemōc]

It's awesome. Awesome on every level, and I do mean every level. Please make a timeline of it? Hell, I'd be glad to help if you think you can't do it alone. This just needs to exist.

This is the reason why I'm doing it. I want to make sure I'm not going out of bounds like I did with Anahuatlacanco and its previous versions. No major empires, just a small timeline on a rich Central Asian kingdom that thinks itself a little too highly of itself and xenophobic towards its neighbors. The Greeks and Chinese were known for their hubris so imagine the hubris of the Dayuan, being a nation of culturally mixed roots.

For the Dayuan, you would see something along the lines of Sojunghwa where you have a significant percentage of the locals having this belief that Dayuan culture is the purest form of Hellenism or Chinese civilization and that China and Greece have strayed away from it. As the Dayuan Kingdom would be founded by the remnants of the Xiongnu, they believe that China has essentially gone to the dogs and that it's no longer the supreme civilization. Dayuan is instead. They're xenophobic towards barbarians (i.e. other steppe nomads), seeing them as primitive vagrants and those who refuse to accept their culture. It's hypocritical since they themselves, give or take a few generations, originated in the steppes. As we know with America and its tradition of passing the buck on new arrivals, I'd say it's plausible for the Dayuan to feel this way.

Now on to the Dayuan and their feelings towards their "ethnic kinsmen" in the rest of the Hellenistic world. Parthia is a factor and with the decline of Seleucid authority, Greek culture in both Dayuan and the rest of the stagnating Successor kingdoms would slowly but surely diverge from one another that it'd become increasingly difficult to understand each other or comprehend their cultural norms. The conservative-minded Greeks in mainland Greece would be aware to the worship of Isis or Astarte but the knowledge of fellow "Greeks" worshipping Chinese, Iranian and Indic gods and their traditions would probably cause a mild form of revulsion. They would see the Dayuan as the rejection of Greek identity. The feeling is of course mutual from the Dayuan's perspective. Being partially the descendants of Alexander's veteran-settlers, they would view the Hellenic Greeks as effeminate cultural degenerates who've lost their way and become so weak that barbarians (Rome) have subjugated them. In regards to the outposts of Greek culture in India beyond Dayuan rule, there's more of a sense of togetherness due to closer distances.

The Dayuan kingdom's view towards Rome would be not too different from how the Egyptians first thought of the Greeks. Uncultured barbarians with no history somehow getting into the spotlight. Unlike their view towards their Hellenic kinsmen, there's a grudging respect for Rome as their cultural inferiority has not gone in the way of them securing mastery over the westermost portion of the known world (to them). Over time, the Dayuan would take and adopt the best of Rome's military prowess for their own armies as they move away from phalanx-style warfare for a mobile approach (especially since mountains are terrible for phalanx-heavy armies).

Dayuan do not view the Parthians as equals but they're very close due to their tight military, political and economic relations. They constantly send embassies back and forth between Yalishanda and Ctesiphon to maintain this almost brotherly state of affairs. The Parthians see the Dayuan as a trade partner and a partner in making sure the other steppe nomads stay a comfortable distance from their lands. The Dayuan are grateful to the Parthians for aiding them in seizing control of Fergana and not betray them or seize their lands during the original Xiongnu Empire's decline.

I'll get to everyone else in due time. I'm tight for time.

 

[Herzen's love-child]

Just as the Bactrian Greeks (and the Indo-Greeks for that matter in relation to the Indian cultures) were just a veneer overlayed over the pre-existing and vastly larger Bactrian and Sogdian population, so too would the invaders you bring into the mix be yet another veneer. Over time, both usurper cultures would tend to be absorbed into the underlying population and be colored by both the Bactria-Sogdian culture and the influential long-lived neighboring cultures -- the Indian and that of the Iranian plateau. Probably in a process similar to that which took place among the Kushan. The Sino-Greek influence would play out mostly in court culture, administrative and possibly military related institutions at first before mutating out of all recognition from their origins. Perhaps like what happened to the Bactrian and Indo Greeks their longest lived influences might only be recognized in coinage and the arts.

One thing going for the Kushan is they were very open to outside influences and had no real elitist pretensions regarding their cosmopolitan culture. The ultimately conservative and elitist nature of ruling cultures looking towards Hellenistic and Chinese ideals ( at least that is the assumption I'm getting from the OP) may have a rougher ride in governing a traditionally hard to govern region.