Sino-European

This was a favorite of S.M. Stirling back on SHWI. Although with his... interesting... views, I don't think this interest stemmed from the most noble intentions.

But as to the WI, methinks the changes would be massive. Compare for example Dravidian / pre-Vedic India with post-migration India. We could see a mix of Aryan religion and the Shang-era Chinese practices. Beyond that, I have no idea. My knowledge of this period is limited.
 
Anyone know how to go through the SHWI archive for stuff? I'd be interested in it. Reading Stirling's posts on SHWI back in the day pretty much led to me never purchasing or reading any of his books again, and badmouthing him to everyone I know; but I'm sure other people in the discussion might have said something useful.

Aryan's controlling the Chinese heartland might very well lead to something like the caste system developing there. Later in history, when the more heavily Chinese south begins to burgeon it population due to rice and the climate, it may have very interesting effects.

Also, this might easily link in with the 'Indus Valley civilization survives' stuff.

Anyone remember the AHTG yahoo group? I believe they had an Aryan China world.
 
I'm now curious: what was Stirling's supposed subtext? I assume racism of sorts, but I would have thought a racist would prefer Aryans conquer the darkies of the Indian subcontinent rather than the by no means darkie Shang Chinese.

As for Aryan China, what about Lord Kalvan? Presumably, if the Aryans moved over the Pacific, at least some had stayed in East Asia.
 
I'm now curious: what was Stirling's supposed subtext? I assume racism of sorts, but I would have thought a racist would prefer Aryans conquer the darkies of the Indian subcontinent rather than the by no means darkie Shang Chinese.


I'm not exactly sure, but it involved a completely white China remaining on par with Europe throughout history, because obviously the Han are incapable of doing anything themselves because of their inherent inferiority.
 
I'm now curious: what was Stirling's supposed subtext? I assume racism of sorts, but I would have thought a racist would prefer Aryans conquer the darkies of the Indian subcontinent rather than the by no means darkie Shang Chinese.

That assumes that all racism is a dichotomy of white/black, which it isn't.
 
Frankly, I think it's impossible, unless you butterfly away East Asian agriculture.

In OTL, both the Mongols and the Manchu invaded China. However, neither group transmitted their culture to China. Rather the reverse - the ruling classes of both groups became very Sinicized - in the case of the Manchu, their culture essentially died out.

The closest I could see to an "Indo-European" China is if there was no Turkish migration from the Altai region. Central Asia stays Iranian, and Xinjiang remains IE speaking. The horse nomads may even move into Mongolia, wiping out the Mongols as a distinct people.

Past this, you'd be hard pressed though. Some IE group of horse nomads may well invade China, either from Mongolia or less likely via the Silk Road. There would almost certainly be no language transmission, although I could see China becoming Nestorian or Manichaean - particularly if Islam never makes it into the region.
 
Frankly, I think it's impossible, unless you butterfly away East Asian agriculture.

In OTL, both the Mongols and the Manchu invaded China. However, neither group transmitted their culture to China. Rather the reverse - the ruling classes of both groups became very Sinicized - in the case of the Manchu, their culture essentially died out.

The closest I could see to an "Indo-European" China is if there was no Turkish migration from the Altai region. Central Asia stays Iranian, and Xinjiang remains IE speaking. The horse nomads may even move into Mongolia, wiping out the Mongols as a distinct people.

Past this, you'd be hard pressed though. Some IE group of horse nomads may well invade China, either from Mongolia or less likely via the Silk Road. There would almost certainly be no language transmission, although I could see China becoming Nestorian or Manichaean - particularly if Islam never makes it into the region.

This I have to disagree with. Both the Mongols and Manchu invaded China at a time when Chinese culture was already extremely advanced. Moreover, the Mongols, and to a lesser extent the Manchu had practically no culture of their own. The Manchu in particular were heavily sinicized long before they invaded. The Aryans invading China would be invading the Shang or an even earlier culture, one that would not have much, if any cultural advantage over the invaders, and for that matter, one that dominates very little of China.

tormsen said:
That assumes that all racism is a dichotomy of white/black, which it isn't.

Of course not, but when talking an American, the black/white dichotomy is a pretty safe assumption. In any case, any Aryan conquered China is hardly going to be "white," certainly no more so than Northern India. If Stirling posited greater technological development because of competition between Aryan States in the North and non-Aryan in the south rather than OTL unity, then it seems perfectly reasonable. If it's that white people are inherently superior, then it wouldn't even make sense for a racist.
 

Fatal Wit

Banned
Well, it depends how you define 'Aryan". Iranic people consider themselves Aryan don't they?... hell, thats supposed to be the basis of the word. So maybe if you "Iranize"(/Persianize?) more of Central Asia besides the more fertile areas of Tajikistan and Fergana(the Ferganans were fairly Iranized/Persianized prior to the Mongold devestation), we could see an arguably "Aryan" group conquer China(though I don't know of any state in that region succesfully conquering China in OTL. Steppe conquerers tended to be from the North rather then the West didn't they?
 
Well, it depends how you define 'Aryan". Iranic people consider themselves Aryan don't they?... hell, thats supposed to be the basis of the word. So maybe if you "Iranize"(/Persianize?) more of Central Asia besides the more fertile areas of Tajikistan and Fergana(the Ferganans were fairly Iranized/Persianized prior to the Mongold devestation), we could see an arguably "Aryan" group conquer China(though I don't know of any state in that region succesfully conquering China in OTL. Steppe conquerers tended to be from the North rather then the West didn't they?

Well, turkic tribes established at least some of the successor states in Northern China after the collapse of the Tang. The Li imperials themselves may have had some turkic blood, though the family itself is certainly Han chinese. So, there is precedent for a conquest of at least Northern China from the west.
 
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