Sinn Féin as a major Irish party

I don't know that much about Irish political history (sadly), what I know is that the Irish Republic was formed by the IRA and lead in it's first years by Sinn Féin, but then they fell out of power and are now the 4th place party in Irish elections, so what happened and what POD is needed to make Sinn Féin one of Ireland's big parties
 
I don't know that much about Irish political history (sadly), what I know is that the Irish Republic was formed by the IRA and lead in it's first years by Sinn Féin, but then they fell out of power and are now the 4th place party in Irish elections, so what happened and what POD is needed to make Sinn Féin one of Ireland's big parties
There's a minor problem: Sinn Fein is often associated with the IRA. In other words, it's linked to the violence of Norn Iron. Not the best linkage possible.

Then again, I might be confusing it with another party. I'm out of it right now. Are there any experts out there?
 
Having just done a quick review of Irish political history I'm honestly not sure, it seems to me that the reason they don't have more support in Ireland (ironically they actually do fairly well in N. Ireland) is because the Irish, unlike other countries are'nt politically split into 2-3 overall political ideologies, but rather a rainbow ranging from liberal conservatives to communists and a whole lot of others that don't fit on the Left-Right axis in between.

So I suppose to get Sinn Fein a major party you'd need their to be less parties I guess.
 
Not sure this is too possible to be honest. For three major reasons:

1. Fianna Fail. Essentially an early split from Sinn Fein, with De Valera at the helm.

2. Fine Gael- developed from IRA-hating politicians such as Eoin O'Duffy and Cosgrave. Nearly as strong as FF.

3. Sinn Fein's tendency to split. Today's Irish Labour Party (including the current leader) is made up partly of a merger into the Irish Labour Party by Democratic Left, formally the bulk of The Workers' Party, formerly Official Sinn Fein...
 
Not sure this is too possible to be honest. For three major reasons:

1. Fianna Fail. Essentially an early split from Sinn Fein, with De Valera at the helm.

2. Fine Gael- developed from IRA-hating politicians such as Eoin O'Duffy and Cosgrave. Nearly as strong as FF.

3. Sinn Fein's tendency to split. Today's Irish Labour Party (including the current leader) is made up partly of a merger into the Irish Labour Party by Democratic Left, formally the bulk of The Workers' Party, formerly Official Sinn Fein...


Sinn Fein's origins go back to 1905 and they were originally a party that wanted complete independence going well beyond home rule. It is the current Sinn Fein that is a breakway party and agruably Fine Gael are the real Sinn Fein in that they were descneded from pro-treaty Sinn Finn and Fiana Fail from Anti treaty Sinn Fein when the Sinn Fein M.Ps split over the treaty. The pro treaty M.Ps changed their name to Cumann na nGaedhael later merging to form Fine Gael. Fianna Fail was formed when De Valera left Sinn Fein over its hardline stance on abstention.

The current Sinn Fein is a breakaway from official Sinn Fein which became Sinn Fein the workers party. It is therefore arguable as to who exactly are Sinn Fein and arguably they are the second largest party and principal opposition party
 
Having just done a quick review of Irish political history I'm honestly not sure, it seems to me that the reason they don't have more support in Ireland (ironically they actually do fairly well in N. Ireland) is because the Irish, unlike other countries are'nt politically split into 2-3 overall political ideologies, but rather a rainbow ranging from liberal conservatives to communists and a whole lot of others that don't fit on the Left-Right axis in between.

So I suppose to get Sinn Fein a major party you'd need their to be less parties I guess.
lots of reasons, why they dont get much support, of which i will go in to ina bit, but first, for those of you that confessed to a lack of knowledge of irish parties... a brief history (well i tried to be brief)

1900 ish sinn fein (means ourselves alone) launched to aggitate for a home rule with a personal union with the british crown!!! (looking at sinn fein now that doesnt add up but its true)
at this time there already was the IPP (irish parlementry party) which held most of wehat became the irish republic and a good few chunks of what became NI and the ulster unionists ( basically a branch of the torys), who held trinty college, and the core bits of NI,

early 1910s - the labour movement starts in ireland and a corresponding party, imaginativly called the labour party is formed
-
1916 and all that jazz....the rising is called the sinn fein rising by the british. the revolutionary IRB (irish republican brotherhood) who had infaltrated the irish volenteers (most of whom went and fought for the british in ww1), decide that this would be handy and infaltrate sinn fein. (The irb , by the way were very good at taking over other oragisations and warping them to their desires - see the GAA and the way some parts of that fine organisation act with realtion to the english!)

now the next bit is going to get confusing, and its important to remember the old brendan behan quote "the first act of every irish organistion after forming is to split!
"
sinn fein (the dark corrupted irb infested version) wins a landslide , the IPP is exterminated. the labour party is persuaded to not contest the poll so as to not split the vote, and is bought off with formal commitment (Social decleration i think it was called and was given equal billing wiht the declartion of indepence and the new constitution) to some relly advanced stuff, equal wages, sick leave, pensions, maternity leave and lots more

the war of independace happens, the treaty is signed and now it gets tricky (if some of the sequence isnt quite right, please forgive me)
sinn fein splits into pro and anti treaty sinn fein
pro treaty sinn fein wins a referendum on the treaty and forms cumman na geal (CNG means band of gaels )
anti traty sinn fein gets the sulks and starts a civil war,
the anti treaty side gets its arse handed to them on a plate and slopes off to sulk, cumman na geal goes on with running the country. labour is hard pressed to make a dent because its off to standing start (see above) and any way labour got screwed when the social commitment was dropped!!!
anti treaty sinn fein still contest elections and get elected and draw their wages and allowances but dont sit n parlement because they cant say the oath of allegance that would entail!
in the Early 30's CNG force sinn fein to either sit in parlement and become an oposition and help run the damm place or they loose their seats and wages etc.
.. curiously the oath of allegiance ceases to be a problem!!, and sinn fein splits into sinn fein (who stay out) and fianna fail who go in -FF) FF run a slick election (helped by the newspaper owned by the leader of FF , which was paid for by the money he had raised for the war of independence while he was america during the majority of it (the war of indepnce), but the money never quite made it to the natioal coffers!), win and propmpty use their majority to change the oath of allegiance..... no they dont do that, declare a republic, nope not that either, push for greater increses in the independence of the commonwealth countries (as the CNG gov had done).. no, but they do try and getrid of the second chamber of parliment, and do change electoral boundaries to their advantage. they also spend like its going out of fashion, blow the small but useful surpluses that had be created on well no on really knows what!
in the mean time labour is still pretty still, Sinn fein splits into sinn fein (still out and Clann and Talamh - CNT left wing and agricultral leaning)
thing stay still and most cases go backward , ff is in power from the early30s to the late 40s, ireland stays out of the war, living standards go backward and an economic war is waged against england (which screws thing even more!) and the FF leader alianates the whole goddam world by going to sign the book of condolances at the german embassy after hitler committed suicide!
CNg com back into power with the help of labour and CNT.
CNG declares a republic and tries to bring in social reform, like free health care and decent hospitals
FF get in and cancels all that british like stuff!!,
spends like crazy (again no non really sure what on), gets booted out,CNT implodes and dies out. Sinn fein splits into sinn fein (still out and support the provisoal ira, not so left wing) and the workers party (still out , left wing and urban based which supports the offical IRA)
CNG changes name to Fine Geal (tribe of gaels)
Things get a bit better , new leader of FF is a clever guy and not tottaly corrupt , FG and labour get back in , boom continues, FF get back by making big expesive promises, spend like crasy (again no ones exacty sure what on) get booted out.

FF splits into FF and the progesive democrats (but more right wing, and upper middle class based)
Sin fein splits again (this time SF decides to go in irish palriment only) and republical sinn fein stay out
in the north the Ulster unionists (uup) have had every thing their own way for a looooong time, except for labour. there is a slpit in labour and the SDLP is formed. the uup splits into the UUP and the DUP (democratic unionist party ....proves its democratic by being run by the same family for the next nearly 40 years) both are well unionist (basically tory but anti catholic for that added bit of flavour) and try to out compeat each other in sectarian comment.

FF and PD often join up in coalition, the workers party splits, into the workers party .... very left wing and deomcratic left - DL (bit more realistic)
the green party gets formed (lots of imput from refugees from WP)

sinn fein splits again (SF decide to try and not bomb their way to power PIRA goes with them) the other side doesn rally make a party (they take the CIRA )

DL joins with Labour,
SF and DUP obliterate the more moderate SDLP and UUP in NI elections and after ages telling every body we wouldnt work wuth those people (sf of DUP and DUp of SF) promptly forma a govement and are the best of friends as long as the govement cars are equally shared!

the PDs get wiped out,
GP joins FF in colation and fecks things.

the basic rule of thumb is FF fecks things, the other side gets in , makes hard decisons, makes the place compeditive again, then looses due to FF promising the world, takes advantage of the boom that follows the hard work of the other side, then fecks things (while filling their own pockets ) and gets voted out and the other side fixes things again, and then ff gets in and etc etc etc! . its one of those constants, like gravity!!!

oh and SF doesnt do that well south of the border becasue they dont have any policies or ideas on anything except brits out! where they do pick up seats is generlly in very poor areas in north dublin where the old "its all the british's fault " goes down well with all the people who spend all day watch english tv and wearing man united tops, or in some really really ruaral areas when the same excuse is also accepeted, by people who only inherited land beacuse the people with bit of get up and go had left to go to england!

yes i am a wee bit cynical!
 
SteveW said:
Not sure this is too possible to be honest. For three major reasons:

1. Fianna Fail. Essentially an early split from Sinn Fein, with De Valera at the helm.

2. Fine Gael- developed from IRA-hating politicians such as Eoin O'Duffy and Cosgrave. Nearly as strong as FF.

3. Sinn Fein's tendency to split. Today's Irish Labour Party (including the current leader) is made up partly of a merger into the Irish Labour Party by Democratic Left, formally the bulk of The Workers' Party, formerly Official Sinn Fein...
Sinn Fein's origins go back to 1905 and they were originally a party that wanted complete independence going well beyond home rule. It is the current Sinn Fein that is a breakway party and agruably Fine Gael are the real Sinn Fein in that they were descneded from pro-treaty Sinn Finn and Fiana Fail from Anti treaty Sinn Fein when the Sinn Fein M.Ps split over the treaty. The pro treaty M.Ps changed their name to Cumann na nGaedhael later merging to form Fine Gael. Fianna Fail was formed when De Valera left Sinn Fein over its hardline stance on abstention.

The current Sinn Fein is a breakaway from official Sinn Fein which became Sinn Fein the workers party. It is therefore arguable as to who exactly are Sinn Fein and arguably they are the second largest party and principal opposition party

Good rundowns.

Why do I get the feeling that one of the main post-civil war parties in the south retaining the Sinn Fein 'brandname' just leads to a political arm of the Provisional IRA called anything but Sinn Fein?

The 'New Fenians', perhaps?
 
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