Sinicized versions of Christianity or Islam gaining power in China?

That's a huge question, and this answer might be inadequate, but I'll summarize it as such: Buddhism became Sinicized so it could get more adherents. It became accepted because it also filled a philosophical void, and it promised success and paradise for its adherents.

I think there is something there forgotten. Taoism.
There is some analogies between forms of Taoism and Buddhism, and so maybe it appealed to peoples who liked Taoism, or disliked some aspects of it... Maybe also the foreign edge appealed to somes, exotism.

Heck, Zen buddhism originated from China, as Ch'an I think it is called there, and still exist. It may be a bit also syncretism with some taoist ideas....
 
I think there is something there forgotten. Taoism.
There is some analogies between forms of Taoism and Buddhism, and so maybe it appealed to peoples who liked Taoism, or disliked some aspects of it... Maybe also the foreign edge appealed to somes, exotism.

Heck, Zen buddhism originated from China, as Ch'an I think it is called there, and still exist. It may be a bit also syncretism with some taoist ideas....

Yep, but I haven't read anything that convinced me regarding which form of syncretism came first. Daoism and Sinicized Buddhism have strong similarities, and to me it seems like a chicken and egg situation. Did Daoism encounter Buddhism and adopt Buddhist ideas and concepts first, or did Buddhism encounter Daoism first and adopt Daoist ideas?
 
Yep, but I haven't read anything that convinced me regarding which form of syncretism came first. Daoism and Sinicized Buddhism have strong similarities, and to me it seems like a chicken and egg situation. Did Daoism encounter Buddhism and adopt Buddhist ideas and concepts first, or did Buddhism encounter Daoism first and adopt Daoist ideas?

Things may be complex and both. Religious taoism probably got bits from buddhism in some versions, or sects, and later, Ch'an came forth from Taoist influences. MAYBE.

Hendryk may know. But he was maybe banned.
 

Wolfpaw

Banned
One of the things that makes Christianity so difficult to Sinify is its focus on Transcendental Power as opposed to the Immanent Virtue espoused by Confucian monarchism.

In Christianity and Judaism, the King is a coercive character: in patristic Christian thought, the Fall brings sin and social disorder and the need for a power-authority; in Maimonides' philosophy, Kings are those who accept the dictates of lawgivers and have the power to enforce them, compelling the people to obey.

Confucianism's concept of regal power greatly differs. Reasoning from a premise of an unfallen man, man with a good nature, Confucianism sees the need of a moral authority--an exemplar, not a coercer--whose Mandate is not a license to God-like power, but a Heavenly certification of charm. People are good and thus can be, as it were, magicked (by li and yiieh, ritual and music) into the harmony that Heaven implies; the Son of Heaven, by his being, not his doing--as a sage, not a potentate--is the one to work or waft the magic, to bend the grass (the masses) into the immanent order of Heaven. That is what he exists to do. Man's nature is perfectible, but, left to itself, not perfect--"therefore Heaven sets up the King to perfect it . . . If the masses' nature were already perfect, then what would the King's receiving the Mandate be for?"
 
Last edited:
Then, with a distant POD, confucianism could have never reigned, or be very different...

With a.. er.. more moderated and perhaps fusioned with Confucianism 'Neolegalism', by example...

Say, which other grand philosophies and 'ways' china had? Taoism had a more philosophical side too, but any other?
 

Wolfpaw

Banned
Matteo Ricci bowed to heathens, as did nearly every single Christian mission that headed east to meet the Khan. If they didn't they'd be killed. So there's a couple hundred people who I'm certain bowed.
They would bow, but they wouldn't kowtow. Since the Chinese were a tolerant lot, they mostly let European missionaries get away with this gross impropriety, though there were some ugly incidents when British plenipotentiaries refused to kowtow to a "heathen prince."

As a side note, Russian envoys never had a problem kowtowing because they weren't as bigoted towards Asians as WEuropeans were.
 
They would bow, but they wouldn't kowtow. Since the Chinese were a tolerant lot, they mostly let European missionaries get away with this gross impropriety, though there were some ugly incidents when British plenipotentiaries refused to kowtow to a "heathen prince."

As a side note, Russian envoys never had a problem kowtowing because they weren't as bigoted towards Asians as WEuropeans were.

Well, they surely are I bet, due to the legacy of 'Mongol Yoke' or allegated so, but more pragmatic and wiser maybe.
 

Wolfpaw

Banned
Well, they surely are I bet, due to the legacy of 'Mongol Yoke' or allegated so, but more pragmatic and wiser maybe.
Most Russians didn't interact with the Mongols, as most tax collectors were themselves Rus'. The "Mongol Yoke" is more or less propaganda churned out by the notoriously intolerant monks cloistered in Orthodox monasteries; the Russian princes voluntarily sought Mongol favor and blessings well after the latter's power had more or less evaporated. In fact, the Muscovites basically adopted their entire governing structure from the Mongols.

That "pragmatic wisdom" was "Don't treat them like subhumans" simply because the Russians didn't see them in that way. Benighted heathens, sure, but so was everybody west of the Dnieper.
 
Well but the Mongol ilk still lived with them and they still knew how to deal with them in ways that wouldn't piss them off.

Mind you, as pointed, more propaganda maybe than fact, but I could see a remaining distaste for mongols and the like. And maybe a certain fascination amongst some, paradoxaly, like for cossacks...
 
Then, with a distant POD, confucianism could have never reigned, or be very different...

With a.. er.. more moderated and perhaps fusioned with Confucianism 'Neolegalism', by example...

Say, which other grand philosophies and 'ways' china had? Taoism had a more philosophical side too, but any other?

How far back were you looking for POD? The one I can think of is that Qin Dynasty actually survived and lived long enough (event like Qin Shi Huang lived 10 more years, and stabilized successions), thus replacing Han Dynasty period.

This serves the purpose that the main philosophical view of ruling class would remain as Legalism, not Confucianism. The ancient Legalism believed people are naturally evil (concept close enough to converted to Sins), and the rulers have to use laws and forced subjects to behave. I think it's more compatible with Christian believes.

And the prolong ruling from Qin might also deter Taoism from taking root in ruling class, or even prevent Buddhism from spreading. Qin rulers adopted legalism to the bone should be much less tolerant to foreign religions. It's a double edge sword. Can such empire actually able to survived that long like Han did? And what would the Chinese culture be molded during this period? The bufferfly effect is way to huge.
 
How far back were you looking for POD? The one I can think of is that Qin Dynasty actually survived and lived long enough (event like Qin Shi Huang lived 10 more years, and stabilized successions), thus replacing Han Dynasty period.

This serves the purpose that the main philosophical view of ruling class would remain as Legalism, not Confucianism. The ancient Legalism believed people are naturally evil (concept close enough to converted to Sins), and the rulers have to use laws and forced subjects to behave. I think it's more compatible with Christian believes.

And the prolong ruling from Qin might also deter Taoism from taking root in ruling class, or even prevent Buddhism from spreading. Qin rulers adopted legalism to the bone should be much less tolerant to foreign religions. It's a double edge sword. Can such empire actually able to survived that long like Han did? And what would the Chinese culture be molded during this period? The bufferfly effect is way to huge.

A point of divergence two hundred years before Christ's birth would certainly prevent Christianity or Islam from forming due to the butterfly effect in the first place.
 
A point of divergence two hundred years before Christ's birth would certainly prevent Christianity or Islam from forming due to the butterfly effect in the first place.

The other possibilities are "Confucianism" became different. Remind that "Confucianism" we know today is a huge mix of many philosophies thrived in Waring State period .

As I mentioned before (ancient) Legalism should be the best alternative, but the interesting thing is its concept of people's nature being evil (性惡說) rather than good, came from a branch of ancient Confucianism - Xun Zi (荀子)

However the idea of Mandate of Heaven (天命) is way ancient than any of these philosophies, probably going back to Shang Dynasty or even further. But it is also different from what we know today. The original concept probably came from ancestral worshiping, as the ruler himself is the religious figure head when alive, and ascend into divine-hood status after death, so it's a blood tie from generation to generation.

Later when feudal society evolved and required more and more complex succession law, it absorbed concepts of primogeniture right of crown authority, to ensure the next ruler's right. Somewhat like the later European version of divine right of kingship, without a monotheism god, but series ancient divines of previous kings act as invisible guiding force, they came from heaven, return to heaven, and they are one with heaven.

However during the warring state, rulers were often overthrown, and in political reality that often it's the one who had the ability rather than blood tie actually won in the end, and sometimes even the ruler himself became only a figure head, and the true political power came from the second ladder - Shi (士). However they are not like later Shi consists mostly scholars, but warriors, minor notabilities, anyone who can wield political power peaceful or not (think of samurai in Japan). So a more "democratic" view of rulers emerges, and they seek some convenient back doors in philosophy for their moral high ground. The main stream of Confucianism at that time support this idea, by arguing that if everyone's nature is good since birth, there is no mistake to become rulers if you are able to rise yourself up to Saints. The current ruler should transfer the crown authority to the best Saint in his realm. It essentially said people are granted with the right of rebellion if the ruler doesn't have his virtue (天下惟有德者居之).

But you can imagine this became fairly unpopular among rulers whom favorite centralized monarchy and kingdoms merged. (Like Qin kingdom). Thus more practical approach like Xun Zi appeared and branched out from Confucianism, and finally became ancient Legalism (先秦法家). They didn't deny the subjects' right to rebel. Even reenforced it using a completely reversed concept - people's nature is bad, to explain why everyone is like a ticking bomb, so the ruler has the right to use any mean necessary.

Unfortunately, Qin Dynasty didn't last in OTL. It's successor Han Dynasty didn't choose Legalism, and at first not even Confucianism (waring state style). It chose Taoism (also waring state style, not the type we know today). People are neither good nor bad, and they can govern themselves, the heaven/universe always find a way to maintain statue quo. This is obviously fairly popular for feudal government type if it's at peace. Han Empire were almost like reverse back to a more feudal-like, less centralized alliances type Empire.

Turning point came after the Rebellion of Seven States (七國之亂 154 BC), which nearly reverted the Han Empire back to waring states. The next emperor - Liu Che - mostly known in history as Han Wu Di (漢武帝) - Emperor Wu of Han. He faced the political reality, tried a different approach - Disposed every philosophy, but Confucianism (罷黜百家, 獨尊儒術) at 134 BC (At the time he was still a young emperor at the age of 22) after his grandmother Empress Dou (竇太后) died at 135 BC, who was the true political leader in court and major supporter of ancient Taoism.

But his "Confucianism" is no longer Waring State style. The revived Confucianism proposed by scholar Dong Zhong Shu (董仲舒) has a new concept called Interactions between Heaven and Man (天人感應). It continues the convenient back door of right to rebellion, but modified it in a way saying that the ruler may not be a saint all the time. The heaven doesn't just punished the ruler out right by giving subjects the right to rebel and overthrow him. The heaven "interact" with the ruler by giving signs like nature disasters (天災) or minor revolts (人禍). The ruler can issue an edict of self criticism (罪己詔) to subjects and given a second chance to correct his behaviors (many chances if necessary). This "balanced" approach preserves the Confucius concept of people/subjects are good in nature, and also gives a moral high ground for rulers to save his face and maintain rules. The succession of blood tie no longer need to go through bloody civil wars, like the ruler is given a restricted driver's license. It can be revoked in theory, but in practice it just stay as it is if nothing goes wrong.

So the next POD after Qin Dynasty I believe would be at this point. Han Wu Di only wished to have a political philosophy to keep the empire united without bloodshed due to his young succession. Revived Confucianism is not the only option IMO. In fact it's nearly unrecognizable compare to waring statue style. Late there was a controversy about the the true nature of Confucianism called modern and ancient texts controversy (今古文之爭), last for many centuries (ancient texts were discovered hidden in Confucius' decadence residence).

I think there is a big difference between the political power balance game in ancient China Han Empire and Late Rome Empire. Although both seek the same to unite an empire. In my knowledge Rome Emperors (like Constantine the Great) adopted Christianity for the same practical need as Han Wu Di.

Rome Emperors may not be blood related, and Rome Empire emerges from a Republic previously, so they find certain "force" beyond the realm of mortals to establish a crown authority appeal. The Han Dynasty emerged from overthrown previous Dynasty and essentially cut off the theoretical blood line from the common ancestor of the mystical First Emperor - Yellow Emperor (黃帝). However the first Han Emperor was just a commoner before gaining the throne, and he continued using blood tie for succession. People generally still believed the power of ancestral spirit of previous ruler gives current ruler authority. So in order to resolve this contradiction, Han Wu Di found OTL revived Confucianism appealing.

P.S. This is also the reason why every first emperor has to either come up with a legend of his birth, usually involved his mother impregnated by a divine spirit (Most of the time the Chinese dragon, or some ancient giants), so he got heaven's blessing through other means than his not divined father, or somehow trace his lineage to another emperors in history.

IF somehow during the time of crisis another revived Confucianism can maintain people's believe of ancestral authority with certain ancient branches of Confucianism closer to Legalism philosophy, it should provide compatibility later for various Abrahamic religions to take root (Still, somehow need to reduce the influence of Buddism and Taoism later, perhaps Zoroastrianism can be a bridge much earlier than OTL to form a different version of Manihaeism in China).
 
Well, Catholic Christianity can't convert China... but what if you have some Gnostic sect running in the 4th and 5th centuries, getting to China and with beliefs similar enough to Confucianism that the Upper clases adopt it...in one or two centuries, the people adopt it, and by the time of Genghis Khan, you've got a lot of Gnostic and Nestorians... Butterflies, perhaps a West-East crusade against Islam?
 

scholar

Banned
Well, Catholic Christianity can't convert China... but what if you have some Gnostic sect running in the 4th and 5th centuries, getting to China and with beliefs similar enough to Confucianism that the Upper clases adopt it...in one or two centuries, the people adopt it, and by the time of Genghis Khan, you've got a lot of Gnostic and Nestorians... Butterflies, perhaps a West-East crusade against Islam?
Catholic Christianity almost succeeded in converting over a tenth of the population and was rapidly succeeding in gaining even greater numbers until the Catholic Church decided that some Confucian practices were un-Christian and the Emperor of China forbade the proselytizing of Christians from outside of China.
 
Well, Catholic Christianity can't convert China... but what if you have some Gnostic sect running in the 4th and 5th centuries, getting to China and with beliefs similar enough to Confucianism that the Upper clases adopt it...in one or two centuries, the people adopt it, and by the time of Genghis Khan, you've got a lot of Gnostic and Nestorians... Butterflies, perhaps a West-East crusade against Islam?

Manichaeism called 摩尼教 did spread to China (7th century, or even earlier), Zoroastrianism (祆教) even earlier about 4th to 5th century in Northern China. And a Nestorianism called 景教 before Tang dynasty (early 6th, even possibly in 5th). Three of them are often called three foreign religions (三夷教), religions from the west (西來教), or even just called them religions from Rome (大秦教).

Sadly one event in late Tang around 9th destroyed their spread, due to an emperor tried to eradicate any religions other than Taoism. Although they were not eradicated completely, they did shrink, and became even more minority. But several variations of Manichaeism combined with many elements from Buddhism, Taoism, folk religions evolved after that. One of them called 明教, Religion of light (light = 明, pronounced Ming in Chinese), actually became very popular within lower class commoners, farmers. And people generally believe Ming Dynasty is the direct result and linking its name with the religion of Ming, since it used the power of this religion to gather popularity and strength. However soon after the Ming Empire grew steadily, it eradicated the religion itself to prevent farmer uprisings.

P.S. I believe the root of Ming dynasty is also the reason why its last few emperors were willing to accept Catholics in the final days of Southern Ming. The teachings should be surprising compatible with each other.

IMO, the event of different sects spread to China did happen in OTL, but it's localized and restricted to lower class (still have many competitions, despite that). The upper class was dominated by Revived Confucianism, or Neo-Confucianism after Song Dynasty (Which already been inserted with many elements from Taoism, Buddhism, and others). But the reason why upper class stuck with that, I think is mostly about the political power structure within the Chinese dynasty government. It simply already had a suitable one, and didn't require foreign philosophies/religions that required much effort to be modified and probably caused more problems than solved. Also, one of the core believe about Confucianism is that it tells people not to believe in supernatural things, spirits, etc (遠鬼神). It's a major problem when you tried to introduce the concept of revival after death, or Trinity.
 
I'm sorry to make you waste the time and energy writing the long post, but I don't think you know what the Butterfly Effect is. It's the idea that a small change can have larger effects later on. It's hard to explain, but you might want to look it up.
 
Here's my question -- would the OP become more likely if Buddhism had gotten less of a foothold in China first?

I would think it would be possible, but the rise of other religions would be even less likely than the rise of Buddhism. The Buddhist areas of India and Central Asia are closer, and have had longer and deeper commercial ties. And Buddhism has a head start. The White Horse Temple was reportedly founded in the first century, and a Buddhist community existed under a Han Dynasty prince at around the same time. So the Buddhist links in China are really old, predating Manichaeism and Islam completely.
 
Top