I've never heard of that. Most Christians would bow or otherwise show submission to both God and men who occupied important positions such as the Pope, and archbishop, a Prince, King, or Emperor. There's nothing against bowing in the Christian faith as far as I'm aware.This statement came from a book I read about two years ago. I believe it was called "Western Eyes On China" or something along those lines. It was all about the history of westerners ogin to China.
I remember reading one bit about the missionaries in China during the 16th century onwards. It said that the missionaries were most adamant that Chinese converts were never to bow to the Emperor, which was a demand from Chinese subjects at the time.
I've never heard of that. Most Christians would bow or otherwise show submission to both God and men who occupied important positions such as the Pope, and archbishop, a Prince, King, or Emperor. There's nothing against bowing in the Christian faith as far as I'm aware.
Matteo Ricci bowed to heathens, as did nearly every single Christian mission that headed east to meet the Khan. If they didn't they'd be killed. So there's a couple hundred people who I'm certain bowed.There is when he is a heathen.
This is basically what happened anyways. Mandate of Heaven.-The Emperor is basically the Pope. He's chosen by God to represent God's will to the Chinese people. When he stops doing this, a new Dynasty is formed.
I've never heard of that. Most Christians would bow or otherwise show submission to both God and men who occupied important positions such as the Pope, and archbishop, a Prince, King, or Emperor. There's nothing against bowing in the Christian faith as far as I'm aware.
Exactly, a Sinicized Christianity would simply fit it into the religion with little or no problem. A bit stronger than the Divine Right of Kings, but not too strong.This is basically what happened anyways. Mandate of Heaven.
This happened in the late 1640s, when the last emperor of the Ming loyalist regime (or Southern Ming), Zhu Youlang - also known as the Yongli emperor after his reign title - converted to Roman Catholicism partly in the hope of receiving aid from the European states (especially the Portuguese) against the Manchus who had by now conquered almost all of China. Zhu Youlang's family and much of his court seems to have converted along with him, and his official mother (i.e., his father's official wife, but not his natural mother) Empress Dowager Wang was baptized as Helena. His natural mother Lady Ma was baptized as Maria, while his wife Empress Wang was baptized as Anna. Matteo Ricci had nothing to do with the conversion (he was already dead at this time); rather, Zhu Youlang and his family were converted and baptized by the German Jesuit Andreas Xavier Koffler (who died in 1652).
In 1650, Zhu Youlang's court entrusted the Polish Jesuit Michal Boym with the mission of bringing letters from himself and the Empress Dowager to the Pope, the Doge of Venice, and the King of Portugal. These letters were primarily requests for military aid against the Manchus. Boym's mission was exceptionally difficult and dangerous, because the Venetians and Portuguese were both inclined to abandon the seemingly hopeless Ming loyalist cause and concentrate on developing trade relations with the victorious Manchus. Even the leaders of the Jesuit Order did not approve of getting involved in the Ming-Qing conflict. Boym had to wait until 1655, when the new pope Alexander VII was elected, to get a positive response from the Vatican. Even then, the pope did not offer any practical support, only a letter expressing sympathy and blessing for the Ming loyalist court. With this letter, Boym was able to secure a promise of military aid from the Portuguese king, but again it was only a promise without any practical action taken.
Nonetheless, Boym began his return journey to China and reached Vietnam (then known as Dai Viet) in 1658. He then tried to reach Zhu Youlang's court in Yunnan by travelling through Guangxi, but died en route in 1659. Zhu Youlang and his court fled to Burma in 1661, but the Burmese king handed him over to Wu Sangui (who was now serving the Manchus) in 1662 and Wu put him to death.
On Zhu Youlang, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhu_Youlang
On Michal Boym and his diplomatic mission, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Boym
To read a 1650 letter from Empress Dowager Helena to the Pope, carried by Michal Boym to the Vatican and now kept in its archives, see http://asv.vatican.va/en/visit/doc/zoom04.html
After reading the story of Michal Boym's mission, I have great respect for his tenacity, courage, and refusal to abandon the Ming loyalist cause despite its bleak prospects.
In the case of Empress Dowager Wang (Helena) and Zhu Youlang, there is no evidence that their conversions to Christianity caused any division in the Ming loyalist court. One loyalist minister did object to Zhu Youlang's replacement of the Ming empire's official Datong calendar with the Gregorian calendar (which the minister referred to as a 'barbarian calendar' 夷曆) on Andreas Xavier Koffler's recommendation, arguing that this was a violation of ancestral traditions, with the result that Zhu Youlang changed back to using the Datong calendar (this incident is recorded in the Veritable Record of the Yongli Reign or Yongli Shilu, written by the Ming loyalist scholar Wang Fuzhi). But this was a problem of cultural conservatism and chauvinism rather than religious conflict. Also, because Koffler was esteemed as a mentor by the powerful eunuch Pang Tianshou (baptized Achilleus Pang), his position in the loyalist court remained safe until his death in 1652.
Interestingly, by this time (the late 1640s) the Qing regime had adopted a revised and updated version of the Datong calendar, which was originally developed in the early 1630s by the Jesuit Johann Adam Schall von Bell and the learned Christian convert Xu Guangqi (Paul Xu) by incorporating European astronomical knowledge. This revised calendar was called the Chongzhen calendar until the fall of the Ming empire, but was never officially adopted by the Ming court due to opposition from conservative courtiers and preoccupation with the Manchu and rebel threats. Adam Schall then became an advisor to the Shunzhi emperor of Qing, who adopted the Chongzhen calendar in 1645 under the new name 'Shixian calendar'. This is the version of Chinese calendar that is still used today. The Gregorian calendar was not adopted by another Chinese regime until 1912, when the Republic of China did so.
Actually, considering the even more stringent nature of Europe's Divine Right of Kings, the Mandate of Heaven would actually be very accommodating the Christianity.
Perhaps Islam? What if Timur went East?
Hmm, it does seem to have happened.
This is very interesting and deserves a POD thread of its own, though it's not quite the sort of gradual change I had in mind. This would fall under my second scenario (emperor, imperial family, and court convert leading to gradual top-down assimilation of Christianity into the ambient Chinese culture), but this sort of wartime conversion seems a bit drastic for it to have a lasting effect on Chinese society.
It would be amusing, though, for these southern Ming holdouts to have both survived, and if the Qing emperor also had converted as in Faaelin's timeline.
Also from the above link:
This is actually pretty fascinating. For some reason, I was unaware of that this had happened until now.
You should make an additional topic for it.
Didn't stop the Romans from adopting it...
Lemme boil down this premise into two questions: What were the societal and cultural forces that drove Buddhism to become Sinicized and widely adopted by the Chinese? And how could Christianity, Islam, Manichaeism (see link in OP), or even Judaism have done the same?
I think they could be successful to different extents. Christianity and Islam are "universal" faiths in the same way Buddhism is. Manichaeism, at least according to that other thread, is very syncretic. I guess then the question is which of these religions could have had the most adherents, even missionaries, visiting China to make an impact like Buddhism did.
I am maybe wrong, but the Emperor of China was NOT A God in traditional chinese view. He was 'blessed' by Heaven, but a mortal clearly, NOT to be worshiped; in fact, if he was BAD, it was permited to REBEL.