Sinicized versions of Christianity or Islam gaining power in China?

[Strategos' Risk]

Buddhism was a foreign import, yet over the centuries gained prominence and became thoroughly Sinicized and adopted in China. Could syncretic forms of Christianity or Islam do the same? I'm not talking about Nestorians or Hui here, religious minorities who themselves have assimilated into Chinese culture. I'm talking about perhaps Muslim rebels taking control and starting a dynasty, or perhaps a Qing emperor converting to Catholicism, or some other similar scenario. In other words, an Abrahamic religion gains power from a top-down process. And of course, in order for the religion to have any staying power, it would have to adapt to the Chinese culture and be compatible with Confucianism to become slowly more acceptable to the common people?

I ask this because it seems like while Confucianism, occasionally reformed or mixed with Legalist aspects, was almost always the guiding school of thought in the state, Daoism and Buddhism alternatively saw periods of popularity. Some emperors favored one, or the other; some emperors favored one at the expense of the other. And if Buddhism was a foreign religion that could "become Chinese", why not Christianity or Islam?

Super-challenge for someone who can finagle a Khazar-style adoption of Judaism by an emperor.

Scenario similar to this: early Uyghur conquer China, bring Manichaeism into the Confucian/Daoist/Buddhist mix.

 

[Marja]

If the Taiping win, do they count?

 

[Strategos' Risk]

No, I'm thinking that the 19th century is a bit recent, I'd rather like to see if Abrahamic religions could have gotten a foothold in China earlier and adapted, like Buddhist did. The Taiping were a cultish phenomenon in an age where foreign influences had gotten into China pretty thoroughly.

 

[tonsofun]

The biggest problem the Abrahamic religons face in China is that they see God as the highest authority and that humans should only worship him. Whereas the emperor of China had to be bowed to and treated like a god.

 

[My Username is Inigo Montoya]

The biggest problem the Abrahamic religons face in China is that they see God as the highest authority and that humans should only worship him. Whereas the emperor of China had to be bowed to and treated like a god.

Didn't stop the Romans from adopting it...

 

[The Ubbergeek]

I am maybe wrong, but the Emperor of China was NOT A God in traditional chinese view. He was 'blessed' by Heaven, but a mortal clearly, NOT to be worshiped; in fact, if he was BAD, it was permited to REBEL.

 

[Strategos' Risk]

Yeah, exactly. I'm pretty sure in medieval Christendom the Holy Roman Emperor was more involate than the Chinese conception of the Son of Heaven. (Wasn't it bad to make war with the HRE? Wouldn't that prompt Papal action? In any case medieval Christianity also had the Papacy, which was also held in high esteem despite not being God) As far as the Abrahamic conception of God goes, you can syncretize it with traditional beliefs in Tian, though I'm not sure how you could get the people to sympathize with the concept of Jesus. But come on, if the Buddha could become an important figure in Chinese belief, I'm sure that Christ could too.

 

[TaetusPrimus]

Some of the church fathers and theologians considered Socrates a "pre-Christ Christian", sent to the Greeks to prepare the coming of Christ. How difficult would it be for a Christian "apostle to the Chinese" to declare Confucius a prophet? His teachings, as I've read, aren't that incompatible with Christianity.

As Confucianism is as much a philosophy as a theistic religion, the Church (whichever one you pick - Nestorian, Roman, Orthodox, Protestant) adopting Confucian tenets shouldn't be too tough. Replace ancestor worship with special rituals "honoring" them. "Heaven" can be the Chinese equivalent of Jehovah, and Christ be the ultimate "Son of Heaven."

 

[pa_dutch]

The biggest problem the Abrahamic religons face in China is that they see God as the highest authority and that humans should only worship him. Whereas the emperor of China had to be bowed to and treated like a god.

Actually, considering the even more stringent nature of Europe's Divine Right of Kings, the Mandate of Heaven would actually be very accommodating the Christianity.

Christianity in China would certainly be interesting... It wouldn't be as flexible as Buddhism, Taoism, and Confucianism toward allowing Chinese folk religions to be practiced alongside it, but given the heavy integration of European pagan elements into Western Christianity, it would be interesting to see how traditions syncretize.

 

[Strategos' Risk]

Christianity in China would certainly be interesting... It wouldn't be as flexible as Buddhism, Taoism, and Confucianism toward allowing Chinese folk religions to be practiced alongside it, but given the heavy integration of European pagan elements into Western Christianity, it would be interesting to see how traditions syncretize.

Myths get tweaked and gods become saints... Guan Yu becomes a battle-saint. Heck yes.

 

[Badshah]

Perhaps Islam? What if Timur went East?

 

[Strategos' Risk]

Timur as an Islamic equivalent of the Yuan or the Qing? That sounds interesting...

 

[Snake Featherston]

Islam existed in Chinese territory for centuries without taking it over, though a possibility that might work is to have the Ma Clique in China somehow take over the GMD. Instant "Muslim" takeover of China.

 

[Zajir]

Islam existed in Chinese territory for centuries without taking it over, though a possibility that might work is to have the Ma Clique in China somehow take over the GMD. Instant "Muslim" takeover of China.

That would more of a Syria analogue, with Hui muslims at the top of the power pyramid.

 

[eliphas8]

Timur as an Islamic equivalent of the Yuan or the Qing? That sounds interesting...

I really like this idea, would this hypothetical area control the Chagatai regions that border china?

 

[Strategos' Risk]

The more the merrier!

Islam existed in Chinese territory for centuries without taking it over, though a possibility that might work is to have the Ma Clique in China somehow take over the GMD. Instant "Muslim" takeover of China.

Again, too close to modernity. Basically the premise I'm looking for is either:

1. Early on, Christianity or Islam, like Buddhism, somehow catches on in China through slow assimilation to Chinese culture, and becomes sufficiently Sinicized to be integrated. As I said before, it's still interesting to me that there is somewhat of a slight Buddhist-Daoist rivalry, at least in the earlier dynasties, with each religion alternatively getting patronage from one emperor or the other, while the other faith languished or was even persecuted.

2. The above process is done in an accelerated rate by conqueror with a foreign religion taking over (also see the Manichaeism thread I linked to earlier) or if an emperor and his elites somehow converted, and the religion actually stuck around beyond one emperor (the Qing converting thanks to Jesuits scenario... or Gaozong of Tang converting to Islam).

Tangent: what happened to Mongol religion and Tengriism with the rise of the Yuan? Did they toss it for the Confucian-Daoist-Buddhist mix?

 

[scholar]

The biggest problem the Abrahamic religons face in China is that they see God as the highest authority and that humans should only worship him. Whereas the emperor of China had to be bowed to and treated like a god.

The Emperor of China is the son of heaven who rules through the mandate of heaven. It follows a similar pattern of Divine Right. Furthermore, the Emperor isn't a God, or treated like a God. The Emperor simply occupies the role of the ultimate authority under Heaven. The actual worship that many Chinese follow, without being mixed into folk religion and regional flavors, is basically a monotheistic faith. Take a look into Matteo Ricci who actually helped make Christianity become very popular in China until his death and the Church decided on outlawing his interpretation. It is possible that given a few decades to a century that Matteo Ricci's legacy would result in a significantly Christian china.

 

[The Ubbergeek]

Maybe they confused things with Huang-Ti, the First Emperor, who is often seen as divinised or syncretised with Heavens....

 

[tonsofun]

The biggest problem the Abrahamic religons face in China is that they see God as the highest authority and that humans should only worship him. Whereas the emperor of China had to be bowed to and treated like a god.

This statement came from a book I read about two years ago. I believe it was called "Western Eyes On China" or something along those lines. It was all about the history of westerners ogin to China.
I remember reading one bit about the missionaries in China during the 16th century onwards. It said that the missionaries were most adamant that Chinese converts were never to bow to the Emperor, which was a demand from Chinese subjects at the time.

 

[scholar]

Maybe they confused things with Huang-Ti, the First Emperor, who is often seen as divinised or syncretised with Heavens....

No, Shangdi is different from Huangdi. Huangdi is three things: It refers to the mythological first Emperor, the first Emperor of the Qin Dynasty, and the title of 'Emperor' itself. Shangdi is either 'God' or 'The highest God' depending on where you are looking at. It represents the Lord of Heaven and the concept predates that of Huangdi.