Simon Bolivar, the Napoleon of the South

[maverick]

An old Idea I once had...what if Bolivar was less of George Washington (not the perfect analogy, actually, but go with me) and more of Napoleon Bonaparte?

His government of the Gran Colombia was quite centralist and dictatorial, but was far from his dream of continental unity...but what if he had been able to use the liberating campaigns as the French revolutionary wars? putting new revolutionary governments under his generals (well, like ITTL, but with less domestic collaborationism) and tried to annex them later...

In my idea, the analogue to the Russian campaign is the invasion of northern Argentina, in which he is defeated by San Martin after having occupied the rest of the continent (sans Brazil obviously) in the napoleonic style...

Would this have been possible? for a megalomaniacal Bolivar to act like Napoleon, put puppets and annex unwilling countries for a short reign of terror in the early 1820s?

What do the south americans and the non-south americans think?

 

[minifidel]

Truth be told, Bolivar probably did have the best base to do this from, since I imagine that New Granada was one of the most populated regions in South America at the time (Might have been Peru though).

He probably also doesn't need an ASB-ish increase of military skills for it to be possible, although the amount of territory we're talking about is considerably larger than Europe.

I wonder what Argentina would have been like immediately post-independence if San Martin had been a bit more Napoleon like and had forced Peru and Chile to remain as part of the Argentine government... and with those resources maybe he invades Paraguay and Uruguay...

Oh I can dream can't I

 

[I Blame Communism]

Truth be told, Bolivar probably did have the best base to do this from, since I imagine that New Granada was one of the most populated regions in South America at the time (Might have been Peru though).

He probably also doesn't need an ASB-ish increase of military skills for it to be possible, although the amount of territory we're talking about is considerably larger than Europe.

I wonder what Argentina would have been like immediately post-independence if San Martin had been a bit more Napoleon like and had forced Peru and Chile to remain as part of the Argentine government... and with those resources maybe he invades Paraguay and Uruguay...

Oh I can dream can't I

Surely Uruguay can be kept in Argentina much more easily that Peru and Chile? Uruguay was basically made seperate by wonky circumstances in the manner of Austria, Macedonia, or Moldova, if I'm not badly mistaken, and Paraguay was under Argentine rule in colonial times and wasn't recognised by Argentina until the 1840s. Whereas Peru and Chile were their own Viceroyalty under Spain and thus in practice both fully seperate for administrative purposes.

 

[maverick]

Indeed...well, that sure got off topic fast

 

[Admiral Brown]

An old Idea I once had...what if Bolivar was less of George Washington (not the perfect analogy, actually, but go with me) and more of Napoleon Bonaparte?

His government of the Gran Colombia was quite centralist and dictatorial, but was far from his dream of continental unity...but what if he had been able to use the liberating campaigns as the French revolutionary wars? putting new revolutionary governments under his generals (well, like ITTL, but with less domestic collaborationism) and tried to annex them later...

In my idea, the analogue to the Russian campaign is the invasion of northern Argentina, in which he is defeated by San Martin after having occupied the rest of the continent (sans Brazil obviously) in the napoleonic style...

Would this have been possible? for a megalomaniacal Bolivar to act like Napoleon, put puppets and annex unwilling countries for a short reign of terror in the early 1820s?

What do the south americans and the non-south americans think?

Well, it does sound cool, although is seems a bit hard to achieve. I mean, Bolivar had enough trouble IOTL to achieve what he achieved. If he had accepted no colaboration at all from the lands he "liberated" and had appointed tyranical despots which acted in a very authoritarian way towards the local criollo elites, he wouldn't have gone nearly as far as he did.

The locals would cooperate with the Spanish against him (much more than IOTL). I doubt he would be able to liberate even present day Colombia with such an attitude. He certainly wouldn't have been welcome in Perú or Upper Peru (Bolivia).

As you know, there powerfull local rivalries between the cities and region of Spanish South America. The Spanish Crown was all that kept them toghether. Having Lima agreeing to be ruled by Caracas is ASB. If you want that to happen, you'd need to keep them under control BY FORCE. But given the forces Bolivar could count on, plus the lack of good communications, I doubt that could happen, even for a short time.

The only way that could happen is if Bolivar had something MORE than MERE FORCE. Normally, Venezuelans wouln't want to die following their leader in a mere conquest war in the other side of the continent. Normally, Peruvians or wouldn't like to replace the Spanish Masters from a Venezuelan one.

But what if Bolivar had (like Napoleon) an IDEOLOGY that could make Venezuealans eager to die for him, and Colombians, Peruvians and Bolivians (specially the lower classes) willing to prefer his rule to that of the Spanish or the local elites??? In sum, what if Bolivar was more radical than IOTL???

I think it's an interesting possibility, and one that would make the Napoleon analogy more accurate. But it has some problems:

1) Nationalism was a strong force in France in 1800, to the point that hundreds of thousands were willing to die for the motherland. I doubt it was so powerfull in Venezuela, no mater how carismatic Bolivar could be.

2) If Bolivar is too radical, he might alianate the support of local criollo elites without reaching to the masses. This is because, given the problem of communications, the Indian and Mestizo masses couldn't have easily got Bolivar's message in its pure form. And if they had, they would probably have reject it as alien to their reality.

So, I'm afraid I don't see how this can happen. Which doesn't mean the TL isn't worth writting. Stranger things have happened, and, after all, this genre is based on undemostratable hyppothesis anyway

 

[Admiral Brown]

Maybe I've been overthinking too much on the topic. I came to realize that a fight between San Martin and Bolivar isn't entirely ASB.

IOTL, after all, Bolivar did control everything from Venezuela to Bolivia, although briefly. IOTL, local rulers soon rebeled against him (vocally or quietly). Given the lack of good means of communications, the rivalries between cities and regions, the different interests each region had, the historic tradition of been governed separatedly, the rivalries between rulers, and other reasons, these revelions were expectable.

However, if they were delayed just a little bit, and if Bolivar had thought that unigting Spanish South America was absolutely esential for its survival, he might have attempt to invade the rebelious provinces of Argentina and Chile in 1826, in order to force them to join his Confederation.

The results, of course, would probably have been a great failure. But then you could have a battle between San Martin and Bolivar.

 

[Nicomacheus]

Well, it seems to me that you'd have to change something early on, perhaps having one of the early revolutions/rebel invasions in Venezuela go differently. For example, say the First Republic under Miranda is able to hold off the Spanish. Bolivar is now a conservative force, holding some sort of command under Miranda. This actually sets him up to be an even better Napoleon analogue, as he can seize power from Miranda when the latter screws something up (invasion of New Granada?). IMO you'd need the earlier change to avoid the devastation wrought by the warfare of 1807-1819, that gives him a much more stable, prosperous base from which to conquer.

An earlier change, though, would present problems for San Martin's TL: if it's too late, do the UPRP need to secure Upper Peru and thus require San Martin to invade Chile? Of course, San Martin might acquire power in the UPRP some other way.