Siberia the cradle of civilization (the Ob instead of the Nile)

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Deleted member 160141

Instead of or in addition to the Nile, Tigris-Euphrates, Indus-Ganga, Huanghe-Yangtze river systems, there is another set of rivers which act as the cradle of civilization:
the Ob, Yenisei, Lena and Kolyma (and, optionally, the Amur).

How badly does the climate have to be borked for that to happen, and how would that affect the rest of the world and/or the coastlines?

What sort of worldview would the denizens have? What sort of empires would they build, and how vulnerable would they be to outside invasion?
 
Well firstly you need to get an impulse for the people to actually settle down and making it a more profitable than staying as hunter-gatherers or reindeer herders.

Once reindeer herders,you can't really get the tribes to settle down permanently
 
The boreal forest is a harsh place for obtaining food and highly favours small and mobile populations like OTL Athabaskan people. Reindeer add a useful dimension but otherwise it's very difficult to settle down. It still would be very interesting to see how a civilisation could emerge in such a forest (or any high-latitude forest like that which covered most of Europe thousands of years ago) given that there's nothing like it among the OTL cradles of civilisation.

I tried something like this as a POD for my TL (I'll refer to it a lot since I dealt with questions like the subarctic being a cradle of civilisation, although with what I know now I would've done it a little differently). Consistent circuits of reindeer herding, shaping the land and selecting plants on those circuits, and permanent gathering centers on the Yukon (it's a similar environment) leading to a more agriculturally focused population. Rich men organise the building of earthworks as ceremonial achievement which just happen to have the uses of flood control and sheltering plants. More edible food = more people and reindeer and the lore gets passed down. There are plenty of edible plants in the Arctic. Lands of Ice and Mice is a great example although in my TL I played it more conservative and didn't have the domesticated forms grow to nearly the sizes needed for true agriculture, instead being supplements to the diet. It helps for them too that the Yukon and much of the American boreal forest has regular salmon runs (I'm not sure which Siberian rivers you'd get a similar regularity) which are an incentive to blend settled and migratory life (even if most people are with their animals wandering around during the year, you still have a core group of people who maintain the settlements, farm, and trade).

I think that given the right incentives (and it could simply be a cultural response to the conditions of nature around them) you'd get something similar at the fringes which could filter down into the wealthier and better off lands (in my TL's case Southeast Alaska and British Columbia's Central Coast, in this case the upper basins of those rivers where many of the major cities are) which might get you a true civilisation based around the rivers and carving out a niche in the forests. I used Sagittaria aquaculture as a staple crop, and there are relatives in Siberia (S. trifolia and S. sagittifolia) which are eaten OTL which might be your basis of agriculture for a developing civilisation. Still, I think even this civilisation would end up eclipsed by others. After all, the North China Plain is a lot more productive for aquaculture of Sagittaria species and has a few other useful crops like millet that would likely get domesticated too and form a secondary region of plant and animal domestication. This would be like my TL where the more productive areas of the Columbia Basin outstrip in wealth and productivity the cultures of Southeast Alaska and the Central Coast.
 
So, this thread hasn't been dead long enough that reviving it counts as necroing, right? I also see that the OP has gotten banned, but presumably this is still OK as we can continue the discussion without them. If by any chance I am breaking any rules without knowing, I apologise and gladly start a new thread.

Anyway, I find this idea fascinating. If we start with a Lands of Ice and Mice civilization living of a combination of Arctic agriculture and reindeer herding, which later adapts to warmer temperatures and manages to expand their as well, how far would this civilization grow before coming into regular contact with the rest of Asia? They'd nomadic hordes immediately to their South, so would any of these hordes eventually try to conquer their civilization? Also, after contact with nomads, I presume that contact with China would follow soon afterwards, so could this Siberian eventually end up becoming sinicized to any degree?
 
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