Shia Islamic Majority

Is there anyway that Shia Islam could have become the majority instead of Sunni Islam?

If so, how?

I am no expert (planning to study some Middle Eastern history next winter), but as far as I remember Egypt was some time ruled by a shia government. Could this be strengthened? If so, that would help, as Egypt is a big country.
 
The Fatimids ... But they might not be your best bet since they were arguably one of the most tolerant nations around (at all), being quite meritocratic, and cared little about peoples religion, so they had high ranking administrators that were Jews, Coptic or Sunni just about as often as they were Shia
 
The Fatimids ... But they might not be your best bet since they were arguably one of the most tolerant nations around (at all), being quite meritocratic, and cared little about peoples religion, so they had high ranking administrators that were Jews, Coptic or Sunni just about as often as they were Shia

What if instead they were not moderate. Instead tried to institute Shia Islam throughout the Caliphate. The Caliphate would be unstable but could they at least lay the seeds for future Shia domination?
 

PhilippeO

Banned
Abbasid Shia Caliphate ? during rebellion against Umayyad, a lot of Abbasid supporter is Shia, if Abbasid caliphs also become Shiah, Five Centuries of Abbasid dominance might push Sunni to exist only in Spain.
 
I am no expert (planning to study some Middle Eastern history next winter), but as far as I remember Egypt was some time ruled by a shia government. Could this be strengthened? If so, that would help, as Egypt is a big country.

Same question as above, sorry forgot to quote you.
 
Abbasid Shia Caliphate ? during rebellion against Umayyad, a lot of Abbasid supporter is Shia, if Abbasid caliphs also become Shiah, Five Centuries of Abbasid dominance might push Sunni to exist only in Spain.

Okay so Abbasids become Shia, but in a majority Sunni Caliphate that will be unstable. I could see them laying the seeds for Shia domination but not achieving it during the existence of the Abbasid Caliphate.

And on the idea of Sunni Isalm being exciled in Spain, assuming the reconquesta still happens in Iberia then Sunni Islam would even be smaller. Likely a persecuted minority in most of the Muslim world.
 
The Fatimids ... But they might not be your best bet since they were arguably one of the most tolerant nations around (at all), being quite meritocratic, and cared little about peoples religion, so they had high ranking administrators that were Jews, Coptic or Sunni just about as often as they were Shia

Yes, I think it was the Fatimids I was thinking of. Maybe, as Happers says, if they for some reason became radicalized, that would be helpful in developing a Shia majority.

By the way, this made me think of the comments on this map over Shia areas. The comment section suggests that the number of Shia Muslims is grossly underestimated: http://gulf2000.columbia.edu/images/maps/ShiasReligionCore_lg.png
 
Yes, I think it was the Fatimids I was thinking of. Maybe, as Happers says, if they for some reason became radicalized, that would be helpful in developing a Shia majority.

By the way, this made me think of the comments on this map over Shia areas. The comment section suggests that the number of Shia Muslims is grossly underestimated: http://gulf2000.columbia.edu/images/maps/ShiasReligionCore_lg.png

That's really interesting. Makes sense that Sunnis would try to make Shia look smaller then they really are but that large? Maybe it's true.

But even then they are in the minority. I'd be interested to see a history were Shia Islam is the way Sunni Islam. In which Shia is so incredibly larger that people actually see Sunni Islam as strange and not true Islam, how Shia Islam is seen by Sunni Muslims.
 
Idrssids in Morocco were Shia, although you can't compare it to modern shiism.
They were much closer to Sunnism back than.
 
That's really interesting. Makes sense that Sunnis would try to make Shia look smaller then they really are but that large? Maybe it's true.

But even then they are in the minority. I'd be interested to see a history were Shia Islam is the way Sunni Islam. In which Shia is so incredibly larger that people actually see Sunni Islam as strange and not true Islam, how Shia Islam is seen by Sunni Muslims.

My impression is that the Shias are more internally divided and has sects like the Alawites that are pretty heterodox. Maybe Islam would be a lot more diverse than OTL?
 

ben0628

Banned
Is there anyway that Shia Islam could have become the majority instead of Sunni Islam?

If so, how?

Several options for ya.

1. Prevent Islam from becoming popular in Southeast Asia and India (Fun fact, Indonesia is the largest Muslim nation).

2. Wank Shia Persia, get them to conquer parts of Central Asia.

3. Get Christian states to reconquer land lost to Islam earlier on and focus on reconverting the populace.

4. Make Ibadi Islam more popular.

Overall, I think preventing the spread of Islam would be an easier way to make Shia Islam more popular than trying to get most Sunni Muslims in otl to somehow convert.
 
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Several options for ya.

1. Prevent Islam from becoming popular in Southeast Asia and India (Fun fact, Indonesia is the largest Muslim nation).

2. Wank Shia Persia, get them to conquer parts of Central Asia.

3. Get Christian states to reconquer land lost to Islam earlier on and focus on reconverting the populace.

4. Make Ibadi Islam more popular.

Overall, I think preventing the spread of Islam would be an easier way to make Shia Islam more popular than trying to get most Sunni Muslims in otl to somehow convert.

Would it not be possible to make Shia Islam spread to Indonesia instead? Of course this would need a POD quite some time before the arrival of Islam in the region, as you would need to make most of the tradesmen Shia.

At what time was Shia and Sunni clearly separated?
 

PhilippeO

Banned
Okay so Abbasids become Shia, but in a majority Sunni Caliphate that will be unstable.

At the time of Abbasids, Sunni and Shia difference is not as hard as now, and there still other philosophical/theological variation with wide support (Mutazilites/Kharjites). most Muslims at that time wouldn't necessarily have Sunni or Shia self-consciousness, so Shia dynasty might be more acceptable.
It more like conservative/liberal difference inside catholic clergy, strain of thought among religious elite. With 500 years of opportunity for promotion of Shia as judge, teacher, and military commander, Shia would be very widespread inside Muslim heartland.

Note : Muslims would end up Very different than OTL Muslims, without Nizam al-mulk creating madrassah to standarize Sunni thought , and with Shia a lot more variant theology and judicial ruling, there might be hundred of variant Islamic strain that doesn't exist OTL.

and OTL Sunni - Shia is influenced heavily by Ottoman/Sunni and Iran/Safavid/Shia tension. with POD before this, Middle East would be extremely different.
 
At the time of Abbasids, Sunni and Shia difference is not as hard as now, and there still other philosophical/theological variation with wide support (Mutazilites/Kharjites). most Muslims at that time wouldn't necessarily have Sunni or Shia self-consciousness, so Shia dynasty might be more acceptable.
It more like conservative/liberal difference inside catholic clergy, strain of thought among religious elite. With 500 years of opportunity for promotion of Shia as judge, teacher, and military commander, Shia would be very widespread inside Muslim heartland.

Note : Muslims would end up Very different than OTL Muslims, without Nizam al-mulk creating madrassah to standarize Sunni thought , and with Shia a lot more variant theology and judicial ruling, there might be hundred of variant Islamic strain that doesn't exist OTL.

and OTL Sunni - Shia is influenced heavily by Ottoman/Sunni and Iran/Safavid/Shia tension. with POD before this, Middle East would be extremely different.

So any predictions on how exactly it would be different?
 
Several options for ya.

1. Prevent Islam from becoming popular in Southeast Asia and India (Fun fact, Indonesia is the largest Muslim nation).

2. Wank Shia Persia, get them to conquer parts of Central Asia.

3. Get Christian states to reconquer land lost to Islam earlier on and focus on reconverting the populace.

4. Make Ibadi Islam more popular.

Overall, I think preventing the spread of Islam would be an easier way to make Shia Islam more popular than trying to get most Sunni Muslims in otl to somehow convert.

So prevent the spread of Islam, by how much and how? The early Caliphates made it through the world because of weak empires, tribal tensions and polytheistic people's wanting to find an easier alternative.

The only way I can think to prevent Islam from spreading or at least spreads slower. A stronger Sassanid Empre, a more stable Byzantine Empire, stronger Coptic control in East Africa, and a less tribal based India. All pretty difficult ideas which would require other butterfly effects.
 

PhilippeO

Banned
other AH-ers has sent message to me that Shia in 800s actually more different than Sunni. its certainly possible, i didnt know much about theology debate at 800s.
 
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