Shattered Citadel: A worse Greman Defeat at Kursk

The battle was certainly a severe tactical defeat for he Red Army which lost hundreds of tanks as Russian historians such as Zamulin have admitted However IOTL it did much to stop the Germans so in that respect the battle might have achieved Soviet operational and srategic aims. as we now know post war Soviet claims about the battle were false in that II SS Panzer Corps losses claimed by the Soviets were patently untrue(see Nipe etc)

However as George Nipe points out in Blood, Steel & Myth the Red Army stll had large reserve formations uncommited and these are about to become highly significant in TTL. Glantz & House also point ut the Red Army intended a magor offensive that IOTL proved unneccssary due to the German withdrawl starting coirca JUly 17. In TTL this offensive, which i have called Operation Bagration will happen.

you're missing my point. OTL Soviets suffered heavy losses but could at least show something for it, i.e. German advance stopped and Soviets switched to offensive. TTL they suffer same level of losses and have nothing to show for it since germans continue to advance. OTL Rotmistrov could easily point that out to Stalin and board and claim 5th GTA getting decimated wasn't total loss and for nothing. TTL this can't happen and somebody is going to pay for it.

This wasn't a modest miltiary setback, one of Red Army's best formations got mauled while failing to do its job. OTL later events made those losses acceptable, TLL less so.

As for Rotmistov he continued to hold a combat command until the liberaion of Minsk

You are right, i thought he was removed earlier.

In TTL however is is Khruschev who gets the blame for Prokhorova as, arguably he probably should have

5th GTA will likely partivcipate in Operation Bagration or it might go into reserve in preparation for 4th Kharkov which will very lkely still happen in some form or other.

Well, my point is that TTL somebody will pay for 5th GTA's Prokhorovka fuck up. I was disputing ObssesedNuker's post that stalin was beyond shooting people for modest setbacks. Which,as I've said, Prokhorovka was more than that, specially TTL.
 
Well, 5th GTA impaling itself on II SS Corps is hardly "a modest military setback"

Yes, yes it is. It did blunt the German offensive, which was the whole point of the attack, allowing the Soviets to man and extend the remaining 3 lines of defence, and ITTL Rotmistrov can point to that delay. Plus, much of 5th Guards Tank losses were made good over the following days by both replacement equipment and the repair of damaged tanks. A real catastrophe would be if 5th Guards Tank was completely wiped out, which it most emphatically was not.

Rotmistrov is still likely to wind-up "promoted" out of his initial field command though.
 
Yes, yes it is. It did blunt the German offensive, which was the whole point of the attack, allowing the Soviets to man and extend the remaining 3 lines of defence, and ITTL Rotmistrov can point to that delay. Plus, much of 5th Guards Tank losses were made good over the following days by both replacement equipment and the repair of damaged tanks. A real catastrophe would be if 5th Guards Tank was completely wiped out, which it most emphatically was not.

Rotmistrov is still likely to wind-up "promoted" out of his initial field command though.

But not in TTL. ITTL 5th GTA is mauled with nothing to show for. Germans are stilla dvancing. OTL I agree, Rotmistrov could point out that german offensive stopped and whole thing was multi layer fuck up, some of which was beyond his control. ITTL he can't do that and is only saved because Khruschev continues to fuck things up.

So yes, OTL you are right, nobody got shot over it, TTL with worse results somebody would (and did).
 
The execution of Khruschev is a major butterfly, but probably dwarfed by the other changes coming. Even if he had not been shot, it not a guarantee i.t.t.l. he would have been more than a footnote.
 
Yes, yes it is. It did blunt the German offensive, which was the whole point of the attack, allowing the Soviets to man and extend the remaining 3 lines of defence, and ITTL Rotmistrov can point to that delay. Plus, much of 5th Guards Tank losses were made good over the following days by both replacement equipment and the repair of damaged tanks. A real catastrophe would be if 5th Guards Tank was completely wiped out, which it most emphatically was not.

Rotmistrov is still likely to wind-up "promoted" out of his initial field command though.

Which is happening in TTL as well. 5th GTA will probably participate in TTL Operation Bagration and in the subsequent 4th Battle of Kharkov (which will be different fro OTL in some respects as you will soon see. Rotmistrov will be in command of 5GTA in TTL as well but is still likely to find himself moved sideways during the next few months as IOTL.
 
The execution of Khruschev is a major butterfly, but probably dwarfed by the other changes coming. Even if he had not been shot, it not a guarantee i.t.t.l. he would have been more than a footnote.

Yes, as previously discussed Khruschev's execution will have little impact on WW2. The man was a Front Commissar. Had he not had that outburst his role at Prokhrovka could have been covered up as in TTL and he would have gone on to a very similar poliical career as IOTL.

The imminent implementation of Operation Bagration will however be a much more significant change. The German Panzer spearheads might survive and break out but be badly decimated in the process. Or they might actually be destroyed. This would be followed by a 4th Battle of Kharkov in which the Red Army win bigger and a Soviet breakthrough on German 6th Army's Front resulting in a magor crisis in Army Group South, perhaps even its' destruction. Which willl lead on to changes in the West
 

Orry

Donor
Monthly Donor
Plus, much of 5th Guards Tank losses were made good over the following days by both replacement equipment and the repair of damaged tanks. .

If the Germans advance it means they hold the Battlefield - how do the Russians recover their damaged tanks to repair them? Holding the battlefield is critical in this regard


Bold added to ObssesedNuker's post
 
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If the Germans advance it means they hold the Battlefield - how do the Russians recover their damaged tanks to repair them? Holding the battlefield is critical in this regard

The Russians don#t repair damage tanks abndoned on the battlefield. They are producing thosands of T-34s and aere crewing them with survivors and replacements.

IOTL 5TH GTA was rebuilt within a couple of weeks to participate at 4th Kharkov in a magor role (where again they suffered heavy losses)

The Gerrmans on the other hand do not and cannot replace their losses like this. Given what is about to happen to their Panzer spearheads accross the River Psel in Operation Bagration this will explain why the Germans are soon going to find themselves in a serious ande perhaps terminal crisis on the Russian Front with huge strategic implications gimng far beyond that. There will be some similarities o the 1944 Bagratiion of OTL on the scale of the Desruction of Army Group Centre except, in this case, transferred to Army Group South. And TTL Operatin Bagratiojn will be leading in to that crisis.
 
If the Germans advance it means they hold the Battlefield - how do the Russians recover their damaged tanks to repair them?

Because they didn't at first. For all the destruction inflicted upon the 5th Guards Tank, by the end of Prokhorovka the Germans had made no real gains meaning both sides were able to retrieve their damaged vehicles. ITTL it took roughly two days before the Germans were able to resume the advance. That is two days in which the Soviets could drag the damaged vehicles off to be repaired behind the lines.
 
Because they didn't at first. For all the destruction inflicted upon the 5th Guards Tank, by the end of Prokhorovka the Germans had made no real gains meaning both sides were able to retrieve their damaged vehicles. ITTL it took roughly two days before the Germans were able to resume the advance. That is two days in which the Soviets could drag the damaged vehicles off to be repaired behind the lines.

Except in TTL Prokorovka had the same result as OTL, a big German tactical victory wityh hundreds of knocked out Soviet tanks littering the battlefield. See George Nipe's two books. Blood Seel & Myth, Decision in the Ukraine, , Demolishing the Myth Valeriy Zamulin.

You need to realise that much of what was written about Prohorovka during the Cold War was in fact based on a Soviet lie. It may be based on whateve Rotmistrov said to Staln in order to expain all the Soviet tanks we now know ere lost. We know from Nipe's research of the II SS Panzer Corps records that the German tank losses were nothing like what the Soviets claimed (hundreds f Tigers and Panthers - claims which cannot be true because II SS Panzer Corps only had a handful of Tigers and did not have Panthers at all at the time. Khruschev's rrole in the lead up to the attack was also covered up. Had it been revealed that he had in fact forced Rotmistrov to make the attack, thus peciptating the destructin of 5GTA after Stalin died and Khruschev was in power it would have been hugely embaerrassing for the Kremlin to say the least and it would have made the Soviet Union look bad abroad. So the continued the lie until the Soviet Union fell.

And because Western historians believed the Soviet line nobody bothered to check the records of II SS Panzer Corps which were captured by US forces at the end of WW2 and held in US archives whee they lay unexamined for forty years or so until historians such as ipe actually bothered to look. At which point the Soviet account began to fall apart like the house of cards it actually was.

Prior to that of course Werstern historians of the battle had written accounts based on the traditional Soviet account which is why there are still those who beleve the "traditional" version of the battle.

In the Shattered Citadel timeline the POD occurs after Prokhorovka with that battle going as per OTL. Whicch is one of the reasons Manstyein is in position to launch a more powerful Operation Roland than he did IOTL. The ther reason of course is hat, due to the success of the Hermann Goering Division at Gela in TTL Manstein manages to convince Hitler to continue Citadel with Operation Roland in an attempt to capture Kursk with the Southern wing only. This gives Manstein more Luftwaffe support than he had hough this is limited because I kept the historical weather conditions.
 
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19 July 1943

With improving weather over the Kursk Salien German panzers of II SS, 48th Panzer and III Panzer Corps mounted powerful attacks with strong Luftwaffe support out of the Psel River bridgegheads. Strong opposition both on the ground and in the air resulted in the heaviest fighting of the Grman 1943 Summer Offensive so far. Nevertheless, having broken out into good tank country the tactical superiority of the Wehrmacht in armoured combat made itself felt in a series of swirling and vicious tank battles fougt throughout the day. Despite the muddy state of the ground the German Panzer Diviions were able to make significant territorial gains albeit at significant cost in kncked out tanks and heavy losses among the Panzergrenadiers. However, by dint of fierce defensive fighting and quality improvements in their forces ans the support of elements of 5GTA under the personal leadership of Pavel Rotmistrov the Red Army was able to prevent a German breakthrough.

In the meantime Voronezh and Steppe Fronts gained the vitakl twentyfour hours required to prperly launch Operation Bagration. Vatutin was about to spring his trap.
 

RousseauX

Donor
Vatutin pointed a finger at Khruschhev "Take that man out and shoot him"

Minutes later a squad of Red Army soldiers entered the conferance room and seized the protesting and suddenly frightend Commissar, dragging him from the room shouting hs protests. Minutes later a voley of shots could clearly be heard outside.

"Comrades" said Vatutin "Let us continue with the orders for Operation Bagration"

Stalin isn't going to shoot Khruschhev in 1943 for the simple reason that Khruschhev did a lot more moronic stuff back in 1941 and he never got reprimanded for it even though some red army generals did get shot for "failing" during operation Barbarossa.

Stalin quite liked Khruschhev and he doesn't have a habit of executing people in his inner circle for incompetence (only for being a real power threat)
 
Stalin isn't going to shoot Khruschhev in 1943 for the simple reason that Khruschhev did a lot more moronic stuff back in 1941 and he never got reprimanded for it even though some red army generals did get shot for "failing" during operation Barbarossa.

Stalin quite liked Khruschhev and he doesn't have a habit of executing people in his inner circle for incompetence (only for being a real power threat)

Yeah, when Voroshilov was being reamed out by Stalin for the Winter War failures he apparently told Stalin something to the effect of " If you hadn't shot most of the officer Corps we would have done better, you blankety blank." Upon which he then smashed some plates on the table and stormed out.

Voroshilov wasn't shot for this, and later served in lots of capacities. Basically because he was loyal, and dependable, and part of Stalin's crew. Much like Khruschev. Stalin won't have Khruschev killed. Relieved or promoted upstairs, but not shot. Khruschev is connected in the party and one of Stalin's "guys".
 
The Russians don#t repair damage tanks abndoned on the battlefield. They are producing thosands of T-34s and aere crewing them with survivors and replacements.
You are just joking right? I have book on 1st Czechoslovak tank brigade in USSR - book is actually covering period since 1943 so not just brigade but from forming of first Czechoslovak tank units in USSR. In one part pretty elaborate description of Soviet recovery system is covered. What will be repaired in units shops what will be send to higher units and what will be send to factories for repairs or scrapping. Tanks sent to factories were allowed to be canibalized for spare parts till recovered and put on trains. Why so many pictures of T-34 manufactured let say in spring 1944 with some wheels from early production etc.
 
Except in TTL Prokorovka had the same result as OTL, a big German tactical victory wityh hundreds of knocked out Soviet tanks littering the battlefield.

Irrellevant to my point. The real question is if the Germans hold the battlefield at the end of the day? The answer is no as the German advance that day was checked, if only temporarily. As a result the Soviets (and the Germans, since neither were able to really seize control of the battlefield) recovered most of their knocked out tanks that night which were then repaired over the following days.

Yeah, when Voroshilov was being reamed out by Stalin for the Winter War failures he apparently told Stalin something to the effect of " If you hadn't shot most of the officer Corps we would have done better, you blankety blank." Upon which he then smashed some plates on the table and stormed out.

To be fair, Voroshilov was among the oldest of Stalin's personal cronies while Khruschev is nothing more then some administrative flunky. Consider the fate of that one Soviet air force general who, in 1941, yelled at Stalin that he was making Soviet pilots fly in coffins and spat in his face.

Stalin calmly replied "you shouldn't have done that" and the general, along with his entire staff, was shot later that same day.
 
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Irrellevant to my point. The real question is if the Germans hold the battlefield at the end of the day? The answer is no as the German advance that day was checked, if only temporarily. As a result the Soviets (and the Germans, since neither were able to really seize control of the battlefield) recovered most of their knocked out tanks that night which were then repaired over the following days.

.

Have you read Decision i the Ukraine, Blood, Steel and Myth (George Nipe), Demolishing the Myth (Valeriy Zamulin? If you haven't I suggest you do as whhat you say is obviousy based on the old and now discredited Sovet era myth. In fact my previous point is very relevant because it shows how Nipe and others have discredited that myth.

For example the Soviets claimed the hundreds of German Panthers (II SS Panxer Corps actually had no Panthers at Kursk) an Tigers (only 15- 20 were actually operational at Prokorovka as shown y II SS Panzer Corps recrds studied by Nipe. Soviet claims of German tank losses far exceeds the actual number of tanks II SS Panzer Corps actually had available. An in Blood, Styeel and Myth Nipe's examination of the records show that SS tank losses during the day amounted to appoximately 62 tanks of the 232 runners available (very roughly 25%, mainly from Totonkopf and Lebstandarte which were heavily engaged)400 - 500 Soviet taks were counted the batlefeld by senior German officers and physically marked with crosses to show they had been counted. Senior German officers actually vsited the battlefield to count the Soviet tanks knocked out for themselvbes. Something tha would not have been possible unless theGemans held the field.
 
You are just joking right? I have book on 1st Czechoslovak tank brigade in USSR - book is actually covering period since 1943 so not just brigade but from forming of first Czechoslovak tank units in USSR. In one part pretty elaborate description of Soviet recovery system is covered. What will be repaired in units shops what will be send to higher units and what will be send to factories for repairs or scrapping. Tanks sent to factories were allowed to be canibalized for spare parts till recovered and put on trains. Why so many pictures of T-34 manufactured let say in spring 1944 with some wheels from early production etc.

Maybe a slight exaggeration. The Soviet Uno was however producing thousads of tanks and they were getting Wesern tanks through the Arctic Convoys as well. Though the Soviets could repa\ir damagd tanks that was only if they held the battlefeld which , as we now know they did not at Prokorovka (see George Nipe Decision in the Ukraine , Blod Steel and Myth) as well as Valeriy Zamulin Demolishing the Myth.
 
Yeah, when Voroshilov was being reamed out by Stalin for the Winter War failures he apparently told Stalin something to the effect of " If you hadn't shot most of the officer Corps we would have done better, you blankety blank." Upon which he then smashed some plates on the table and stormed out.

Voroshilov wasn't shot for this, and later served in lots of capacities. Basically because he was loyal, and dependable, and part of Stalin's crew. Much like Khruschev. Stalin won't have Khruschev killed. Relieved or promoted upstairs, but not shot. Khruschev is connected in the party and one of Stalin's "guys".

And in TTL Stalin remembers that when he found out what happened. Khruschev gets the blame in TTL/ But don't get to upset, it was smething I decided to do for entertainmen value and it won't have a big effect on the timeline, n in the short term outcome of WW2 etc. Though it obviously will in the long term. And with a different outcom to WW2 theCold War is going to be significantly different at least in Europe.

We can speculate on that when WW2 actially ends in TTL however so I suggest you wait until then o do so.
 
20 July 0300 Southern sector of the Kursk Salient The Air Battle

As dawn broke a massive Soviet airstrike hit the Luftwaffe airbases flying ground support operations for Operation Citadel/Roland and for the rest of Army Group South. Heavy air attacks were also mounted on those supporting Army Group Centre's defensive fighting in the Orel Salients. As ill luck would have it the strike caught the Luftwaffe completely by surprise with many aircraft taxiing on the runways about to take off. Large numbers of Luftwaffe aircraft were knocked out on the ground, mostly ground support planes including Rudel's fighter wing. Rudel himself was severely wounded in the strike suffering seere burns and lacerations. He survived but this, for him, was the end of World War 2 as he spent the next eight months in hospital, recovering from his wounds. Quite a few German fighters were in the air but most were actually in the wrong places to prevent the Soviet strike thanks to the fact that they wee moving into postion to fight for air control over he battlefield, so the ground attack aircraft could hit Soviet positions with minimal interferance from the Soviet airforce, not to protect their airbases. Nevertheless intense air battles quickly developed with both sides suffering heavy aircraft losses including many Sovet fighters and bombers. Nevertheless, the Soviet airforce had achieved tactical control of the air over the Kurask Salient and Army Group South, at least for the time being.
 
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Maybe a slight exaggeration. The Soviet Uno was however producing thousads of tanks and they were getting Wesern tanks through the Arctic Convoys as well. Though the Soviets could repa\ir damagd tanks that was only if they held the battlefeld which , as we now know they did not at Prokorovka (see George Nipe Decision in the Ukraine , Blod Steel and Myth) as well as Valeriy Zamulin Demolishing the Myth.
But of course. If you are able to do recover only if you hold the battlefield.

Their approach was maybe bit different then German especially towards heavily damaged and burned out tanks where they took more time to recover as machines went directly to scrap. After all their indeed had more resources to replace the vehicles. Vehicles, Soviet and German were marked - marks clearly stating intention of recovering crews. All usable parts from destroyed vehicles were taken out usually by tank units mechanics to lower burden on supply train and save time for waiting for new parts to be delivered.

However they were recovering also German machines either for scrap or or repairs and use.

Also few years ago I red article and it mentioned conditions in which crew could abandon tank and in case it was abandoned to leave it on battlefield. I am not sure if it wasn't one of interviews with Dmitryi Loza, Soviet Sherman tank commander.
 
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