Shattered Citadel: A worse Greman Defeat at Kursk

[lucaswillen05]

Given how he asked for permission to withdraw uncontested to support the Home Army against the SS, that would be extremely improbable.

I would imagine if the Allies intact he would conduct a fighting withdrawal as best he could and then support the Home Army against the SS.

I think the Western Allies would want to adopt a "wait and see" policy at this stage. In France they have only recently wound up two magor offensives, Operations Verity and Slingshot. Given this they won't want to embark on a new offensive so soon considering the hard fighting and heavy Allied casulties. Plus the weather will be worsening. While the Allies build up for a new offensive in France they can observe events in Germany.

Rommel's position however is a difficult one pending the outcome of the Civil War. If the Allies mount an offensive he will have difficult choices of his own to make. For the time being he is safe enough

 

[lucaswillen05]

20 October 1943

Around Zossen and Juterbog SS units continued to regroup and dug in to defensive positions to resist the Home Army attack expected some time in the next two or three days.

In a dramatic political development Vic Admiral Donitz declared his support for the Himmler Government. However, the navy did not entirely agree with this and a number of ships crews and Marine units in Kiel mutinied later in the day with fierce but indecisive fighting on Kiel naval base and spilling over ito Kiel itself.

Herman Goring also declared his support for the Himmler Government. Again the Luftwaffe split with a number of German air base units mutinying and declaring support for the rebellion against the Nazis.

In France and Russia army commanders were fced with an impossible choice. They clearly could not remain neutral in a situation that was clearly sliding towards an all out civil war. But should they declare loyalty to Himmler, remaining true to thei oath of loyalty to the Fuhrer even though the war was clearly lost and fightuing on would result in the ultimate ruin and occupaton of the country. Or should they act as German patriots and help to overthrow the Nazis? Army commanders in Norway, Italy and the Balkans faced similar, if somewhat less pressing choices.

In Moscow Stalin considered what use might be made of Paulus and the recently formed National Committee for a Free Germany and of the League of German Officers

In the West British and US poliical and military leaders continued to debate the merits of a final military offesive taking advantage of the civil war in Germany, much as had been done in 1918. Against that of course was the possibility that senior German commanders or entire units might now defect to the Western Allies.

 

[hasdrubal barca]

Interestedto see what role Paulus plays.

 

[aktarian]

In Moscow Stalin considered what use might be made of voon Paulus and the recently formed National Committee for a Free Germany.

Paulus was not a von. I'ts a common misconception he was.

 

[lucaswillen05]

Interestedto see what role Paulus plays.

If any. The National Committee for Free Germany was only formd in mid July 1943. It may be that Stalin will try to use Seydlitz-Kurzbach and the League of German officers. Realisticly the Soviets are unlikely to use these men for much more than propaganda messages as they are viewed as traitors. Even the anti Nazi faction will likely view them as traitors and Soviet stooges. Stalin will likely make an attempt at using them for purposes of Soviet prpaganda but, certainly at this stage. they will not try infilrating German lines.

 

[lucaswillen05]

Paulus was not a von. I'ts a common misconception he was.

Edited to Paulus

 

[lucaswillen05]

21 October 1943 Norway

Reichkommissar Josef Terboven sided with the Himmler Government backed by the SS under the command of Obergruppenfuhrer Willhelm Rediess and Hans Huttig

However, the German military commander Nikolaus von Falkenhorst decided to side with the anti Nazi fgction and ordered his 400000 strong garrisson to begin disarming the 6000 strong SS contingent in Norway, Heavy fighting developed during the day as the SS, supported by the Norwegian Quislings opposed this action. During the day's fighting Vidkun Quisling was kiled by small arms fire as he attempted to reach SS units,

The Reich Civll War had spread to Norway. It was however significant that Falkenhorst was the first senior Wehrmacht commander to openly break with the Nazis and that most of the 400000 regular army troops were prepared to follow his orders, so far at least

Germany

In the Reich itself the Home Army and the SS continued to prepare for a major action in the Zossen and Juterbog region. Heavy skirmishing continued in many areas including around Nurumburg where many armed Nazis were gathering,

 

[lucaswillen05]

22nd - 23rd October Norway

Heavy fighting in Norway continued throughout the 22nd and much of the 23rd as the SS and Norwegian Quislings continud a fanatical resistence. By the end of the 23rd most SS units outside Oslo had been forced to lay down their arms Fighting continued in the centre of the capital.

Germany

Skirmishing contnued throughout the Reich. Units of the Home Army encircled the Juterbog and Zossen area with several small but fierce firefights. Similar actions were fought around Kiel and Nurumberg. Most Germans however took a "wait and see" attitude, preferrng to see who seemed most likely to win the civil war. After the defeats of the last few months and the regular aerial bombing campaigns of thhe RAF and USAF the population was increasingly war weary

 

[lucaswillen05]

24 October 1943 Norway

Following another day of fighting in Oslo over 2000 of the remaining SS surrendered including Obergruppenfuhrer Willhelm Rediess and Hans Huttig.
Reichkommissar Josef Terboven had been seriously wounded during the finl hours of fighting and was taken prisoner when the SS surrendered. Terboven died oof his wounds a few hours later.

Germany

The SS and other pro Nazi forces now completely encircled in the Juterbog/Zossen area, Nurumberg and Kiel were given a 48 hour deadline to lay down their arms. Himmler and Bormann refused. Vice Admiral Donitz meanwhile indicated that he would consider the possibility of negotiations in return for certain "considerations" such as a place in the new government and certain othe "gauruntees"

Skirmishing conntinued in Southen Germany, most seriously in Bavaria and also in Austria. A paticularly serious action took place at Linz, Hitler's bithplace where some 600 SS attempted to stom the town. Another fierce battle was fought at Bergtesgarden when German army units stormed the Berghof capturing Hitler's mstress, Eva Braun

Italy

In Italy the German occupation forces under Alber Kesselring followed the example of the forces in Norway and declared their support for the new, non Nazi Government. Kesselring later explained that the reason for his action was that he had been shown evidence of the SS atrocities in the Death Camps. That may have been part of the reason but it was clear to him tht, by this stage, the Nazis were doomed and, given this, anyone who wanted a place in the new German Government needed to move quickly

 

[lucaswillen05]

24th October 1943 Russian Front

With the sitution quiet on the Russian Front German troops were surprised by the Russian loudspeker broadcast right along the front shortly after dawn. They were even more surprised to hear German commanders such as Paulus and Seydlitz-Kurzbach announcing that Hitler was dead, there was civil war in Germany and that occupation forces in Norway had mutinied. German soldiers were asked to disarm their officers and com over to the Russians where they were promised hot meals, good treatment and repatrition as soon as the war was over.Most Germans did not believe the news or the Russian promises although there were those who did desert.

 

[lucaswillen05]

25 October 1943 Germany

In the early hours of the morning units of the Home Army, joined by regular Wehrmact units from the Norway an Denmarck Occupation forces began a large scale assault on Kiel. With the support of anti Nazi elements of the German navy opposition quickly collapsed an Admiral Donitz was taken into custody shortly after 1PM

At dawn units of the Home Army, supported by regular army forces began an assault on Nurumberg and the Juterbog-Zossen Pocket. In both areas the SS mounted a fanatical resistence and fighting was very heavy and intense throughout the day. Little progress was made by the anti Nazi forces during the day and casulties were heavy on both sides. A strong column, including tanks spent the day marching from Copenhagen to positions north east of the Juterbog - Zossen Pocket

With the stuation clearly moving their way the new, non Nazi Government under the temoporary leadership of former Chief iof Staff Ludwig Beck and the newly appointed Chancellor Carl Friederich Goerdler began approaching the Allies through Swedish and Swiss intermediaries with a view to arranging an armistice on all frons including an end to the on-going Allied strategic bombing offensive.

 

[lucaswillen05]

26 October - 31 October 1943 Germany and Stockholm

Along the Western and Russian Fronts the situatioh remained quiet as everybody watched the progress of the German Civil War. Arillery fire and skirmishing continued,

For several days fierce fighting continued in the juterbog - Zossen Pocket as Wehrmact and Home Army forces slowly crushed desperate SS resistance. In the meantime Nurumberg was besiged with a number of probes into the city and fierce skirmishng but no serious fighting.

In Stockholm negotiations opened between the Allies and the new Beck administration. Allied terms for an armistice were harsh although, with the Nazis effectively gone the demand for unconditional surrender was quitly dropped. The Germans would, as the condition of an armistice have to withdraw from all occupied territories eturning to the frontiers of 1938 The German armed forces would have to surrender all U Boats and Capital Ships, and begin demobilisation. In addition all tanks and heavy artillery were to be left in place. All POWs and political prisoners hld by the Grmans including any camps still held were to be released and hnded ovr to the Western Allies withing 7 days of an armistice being signed. The questionof war reparations and occupation of any part of Germany.

The terms were far harsher than Beck hoped but the war was clearly lost and the best he could hope for unless he was willing to fiht on was a repeat of 1918. However, the Allies insisted that the SS in the Juterbog - Zossen Pocket and in Nurumburg had to be crushed first.

On 31 October, as Home army troops closed in on Zossen Himmler committed suicide by tking cyanide and Bormann disappeared. His fate was unknown for many years. Hoever, in 1987 a body was found in woods near the town. DNA tests in the early 2000s finally established that it was indeed Bormann and established that he shot himself

 

[aktarian]

On 31 October, as Home army troops closed in on Zossen Himmler committed suicide by tking cyanide and Bormann disappeared. His fate was unknown for many years. Hoever, in 1987 a body was found in woods near the town. DNA tests in the early 2000s finally established that it was indeed Bormann and established that he shot himself

Nice nods to OTL.

 

[lucaswillen05]

1 - 6 November

With the death's of Himmler and Borman and with most of the Nazi leadership either dead or in custody the SS and Nazi Party membership realised that there was little left to fight for and laid down their ams

On the Russian Front the Red Army launched a limited offensive on 1 November "liberating" the Baltic States by 6 Nvember. German forces in the Baltic States put up little resistence choosing to withdraw before the Red Army arrived although leavinng plenty of mines and booby traps to delay the Soviet advance. In Army Group Centre and South little action occurred in what everybody knew was knew were the final days of the war in Europe. Model and Manstein ordered the remnants of the shattered SS units (mostly 2nd SS Panzer Corps) to be disarmed and taken into custody. The regular Wehrmacht units completed these operations by the end of 5 November

Similar actions were taken by Rommel in France largely affecting the badly battered 9th and 10th SS divisions. Throughout German occupied territories Wehrmact forces arrested members of the SS, Gestapo and Nazi Party officials. There was scattered and largely ineffective opposition to some of these actons with some shootings when die hard Nazi officials nd loyalists resisted arrest or attempted to escape. By the end of the first week of November Germany was well on the way to de-Nazifying itself, often thanks to the shocked reaction to the Beck Government's revelation of the Nazi "Final Solution"

 

[lucaswillen05]

10 November The Lyon Armistice

Following some last minute administrative hitches representitives of the German Government including Beck. Goerdler, von Runstedt and Rommel and the Western Allies met in a tent just ouside the city and signed the ceasefire officially terminating hostilities in Western Europe. Within 7 days German forces in France.Belgium, Holland. Norway. Italy, Greece and Yugoslavia were to withdraw, releasing all non criminal prisoners and leaving all tanks, aircraft and heavy artillery in place. All Germn capital ships and U Boats were to be surrendered t Allied forces either in place or, if at sea, at the nearest Allied naval base At 12 noon all firing in France ceased as the ceasefire came into effect. The war in Western Europe was over.

 

[lucaswillen05]

11 November 1943 The Bila Tservjka Armistice

On the morning of 11 November a Soviet delegation headed by Soviet Foreign Minister Molotov and Zhukov. General Bor - Komorowski and President Wladyslaw Rackzkiewicz attendended on brehalf of the Polish Governmnt in Exilemet with the German delegation headed by General Beck, Goerdler, Manstein and Model to sign he armistice on the Russian Front. German forces were to begin an immediate withdrawl from the Soviet Union and Poland staring immediately. All German tanks, aircraft and heavy artillery were to be surrendered and left in situ. At 3pm firing along the Russian Front ceased. With this the European War ended after 4 years of fighting, ironicly on the same date the First World War had ended twentyfive years earlier

 

[lucaswillen05]

The Paris Conference January 15 1944 - June 6 1944

The victorious Allied powers met in Paris early in 1944 to shape the future of the war while Britain and the US redeployed large forces from Europe to prosecute the war against Japan. Churchill and Roosevelt however distrusted Stalin and kept large forces in Europe. Large Allied contingents moved into Eastern Europe and the Balkans in order to prevent Soviet forces from advancing further West. Having seen Stalin's annexation of the Baltic States there were fears that Stalin had further plans to expand the Soviet Union

Indeed, Stalin made a claim to Eastern Poland which had been occupied by the Red Army between September 1939 and June 1941. When the Allies rejected the Soviet demands in March 1944 the Soviet delegation, led by Molotov, walked out of the conferance (March 20) Historians see this as the start of the Cold War 1944 - 1962 which, as we all know, ended in the so called "Cuban War and World War 3.

The Western Allies thus concluded the Paris Conference on their own and thus shaped the future of Europe and indeed of the world. On June 6 the conference was officilly concluded with the Treaty of Paris

 

[Lost Freeway]

The Paris Conference January 15 1944 - June 6 1944

The victorious Allied powers met in Paris early in 1944 to shape the future of the war while Britain and the US redeployed large forces from Europe to prosecute the war against Japan. Churchill and Roosevelt however distrusted Stalin and kept large forces in Europe. Large Allied contingents moved into Eastern Europe and the Balkans in order to prevent Soviet forces from advancing further West. Having seen Stalin's annexation of the Baltic States there were fears that Stalin had further plans to expand the Soviet Union

Indeed, Stalin made a claim to Eastern Poland which had been occupied by the Red Army between September 1939 and June 1941. When the Allies rejected the Soviet demands in March 1944 the Soviet delegation, led by Molotov, walked out of the conferance (March 20) Historians see this as the start of the Cold War 1944 - 1962 which, as we all know, ended in the so called "Cuban War and World War 3.

The Western Allies thus concluded the Paris Conference on their own and thus shaped the future of Europe and indeed of the world. On June 6 the conference was officilly concluded with the Treaty of Paris

Well, this is unexpected.

 

[ObssesedNuker]

The Allies for some reason abandon the principle of unconditional surrender to negotiate with people they view as just as responsible for the war as the Nazis.

Sounds legit.

 

[Historyman 14]

We need a map.