SF film & TV without "Star Trek" or "Star Wars"?

There's a lot of discussion about ending one or the other, but I don't recall any about the effect of both being butterflied away.

Suppose, then, Gene Roddenberry and George Lucas are both killed in unfortunate accidents. (That's just to eliminate any faux versions.) What might replace them?

Given, IMO, "Lost in Space" never becomes a hit. Neither, IMO, would "Time Tunnel". "Voyage to the Bottom of the Sea" was fairly long-lived as it was, but IDK if it was a big hit. I don't think "Twilight Zone" in the '60s could get any more influential... "Outer Limits" might be. I have my doubts "UFO" or "Space: 1999" would be any bigger. I don't see "$6 Million Man" (or its spinoffs) being affected much.

Without Lucas, I don't see space opera getting a resurgence. I also wonder if it doesn't mean the original "BSG" never gets picked up. (It probably means "The Starlost" isn't, which is a net good thing.;) ) It might butterfly "Stargate"(& so the TV series spinoffs), but maybe not; that's late enough it might be made anyhow. (I don't think SF TV or film completely disappears because of this, in short.)

And just to be clear, if I've asked this already & simply don't recall it, feel free to lock this thread as pointless.:eek::)
 

marathag

Banned
But Lost in Space aired in 1965 on CBS, ahead of ST, for 83 episodes, and Voyage the year before on ABC for 110 episodes, the most successful sci-fi series in the 1960s.

Both had better ratings at the time than Star Trek had at the time on NBC.
No Star Trek would only help the other two series.
 
The original Star Trek in the 60s was a fairly obscure show which got cancelled. It was only through re-runs in the 70s that it aquired cult status, so I doubt we would see much of an effect in the ratings of other 60s shows...
 

marathag

Banned
The original Star Trek in the 60s was a fairly obscure show which got cancelled. It was only through re-runs in the 70s that it aquired cult status, so I doubt we would see much of an effect in the ratings of other 60s shows...
While Lost in Space and Voyage were in the 30-40 range, Star Trek never got above 50 in ratings
 
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Lost in Space ran for three seasons, 1965 to 1968. It had more of a juvenile appeal. Star Trek, on the other hand, was billed as "the first adult space adventure" because it featured drama and character development. Lost in Space was from Irwin Allen, so the absence of Roddenberry would not have mattered. Stanley Kubrick did 2001: A Space Odyssey in 1969. Being more near-term, it kept appeal after the real moon landings sort of deflated the appeal of far-future space adventures. After all, the early seventies brought the Six Million Dollar Man as sci-fi. Horror/terror moved into the supernatural with Exorcist and similar stories. When Lucas wanted to revive sci-fi, he wanted to do Flash Gordon but couldn't get the license. He saw blue/green screen special effects had been perfected to make very real-looking presentations. Without Lucas, somebody else would have applied the effects, maybe a year or two later. One question, if the effects were applied to stories of sorcery and magic as opposed to sci-fi, would it have been received differently?
 

Driftless

Donor
One of the difficulties in the pre-CGI era was the special effects and its portrayal of aliens. With the existing technology of the era, quality Special Effects were very expensive to create and film, which really crimped the interest of Producers. Similarly, the creation of alien life forms was typically either very humanoid with use of prosthetics and makeup, or often bordering on cheesy ludicrousness (i.e. Lost in Space).

Of course, those problems were dealt with, to the extent that budget allowed. "2001" broke the ceiling to some extent.
 

marathag

Banned
For USA of 1965, top show was _Bonanza_ with 17M of 53million sets tuned in
13M, that was 1st run of #10 __Batman_(is that sci-fi?) and #11 _Green Acres_
The listings I see for the UK top 20 doesn't have Doctor Who, but does have Royal Variety Show #1 from ITV, with the highest BBC show #14 _Steptoe and Son_
 
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I didn't expect there to be much crossover in audience from "ST" to "LiS" or "VttBotS" (I just refuse to retype that every time... :openedeyewink: ).

The SPFX issue is significant. "Planet of the Apes" (PitA? :openedeyewink: {Sorry, I think that film was too stupid for words.}) was groundbreaking in its appliances, hard as it may be to believe now. And Kubrick set out to update "Destination Moon", not create a psychedelic arthouse film nobody who's not on dope understands; I suspect he was pre-empted by the success of Apollo as much as anybody.

It seems likely there'd be a greater emphasis on juvenile SF, absent the continuing success of "ST" in syndication, at the very least, which means a Buck Rogers or Flash Gordon film in the early/mid-'70s, instead of "SW", is pretty likely.

I wonder if this doesn't go in the direction of superheroes, instead. Wonder Woman, Spidey, Cap, & the Hulk all got movies, TV series, or both in the early '70s (not counting "Batman" on TV,:eek::eek: tho maybe I should).

IDK about the crossover to horror. The monster movie had more/less died out until "Alien" came along, & that was a fairly singular event, so I'm not sure that would be repeated (or initiated) sooner. An adaptation of Lovecraft?

In a more kid-friendly environment, any chance of Piper's Fuzzy novels being adapted? (This is a perennial favorite of mine.)
 

Driftless

Donor
A bit riskier from a financial standpoint for the 1960's and early 70's, but create additional dramatic full length animated movies. That bypasses the SPFX issues. There were a few SF and Fantasy animated films: Fantastic Planet, Yellow Submarine, Wizards, Bakshi's LOTR

Have someone other than Irwin Allen create and run the Lost in Space series. The low budgets with cheap, cheap, cheap sets and scripts that turned it into the "Dr Smith" show took the series well and truly into the tank (IMHO...). Follow the premise of the "Space Family Robinson" comics more, where the Robinson's move through the galaxy more. Some location shooting (adding to the expense of course) would have helped as well. God knows, "Dr Who" figured out how to tell exciting and compelling tales on pocket change.
 

marathag

Banned
IDK about the crossover to horror. The monster movie had more/less died out until "Alien" came along, & that was a fairly singular event, so I'm not sure that would be repeated (or initiated) sooner. An adaptation of Lovecraft
One season of _Kolchak: The Night Stalker_ in 1974, following two made for TV movies in '72 and '73, the '72 movie had the highest ratings ever foe a made for TV movie at this point, a 52 Share, more than half of all TVs tuned in.
The series didn't do well, as it was in the ABC Friday night death slot where shows went to die.
Later in reruns, did well on CBS late night.
 

Driftless

Donor
(snip)

IDK about the crossover to horror. The monster movie had more/less died out until "Alien" came along, & that was a fairly singular event, so I'm not sure that would be repeated (or initiated) sooner. An adaptation of Lovecraft?

In a more kid-friendly environment, any chance of Piper's Fuzzy novels being adapted? (This is a perennial favorite of mine.)

I'm personally not a fan of Lovecraft, but I'm really surprised that hasn't been done. It really should have been and likely would have been a success.

The Fuzzy tales are also prime candidates, either for a weekly series, or a full length animated movie - a Pixar job.....
 
Some sort of sci fi is likely to catch, given how popular the concept is in the 60s. It needs to work for adults but be palatable to younger viewers and preferably be about space given world events.

As mentioned the extant examples are rather juveniles until ST in the states. Perhaps a Who inspired US series? Or something like the X files but without wicked conspiracies just noble government agents countering the commi.... I mean alien.... Threat? Instead of space opera, maybe space westerns take off? Hardy pioneers facing off against barbaric aliens (who happen to the natives of the planets but hey...)?
 
It is hard to predict what will happen. On TV little changes until the lat 70s. When we DONT see Battle Star Galactica and we don’t see Space 1999. Without Star Wars we just don’t get those two Oh and Buck Rogers goes with the butterfly.
On Screen we lose a number of Movies. Most of them poor knock offs. So goodbye to bad rubbish.
But we also lose Indiana Jones as without SW we don’t get GL and Spielberg sitting around dreaming that up. And without Indy Spielberg may not have as much power and influence. He will still be big but may take a bit longer without Indy.
We also lose ILM. And that will cripple a LOT of special effects heavy movies until something takes it place.

As for Sci Fi movies. You still probably get Black Hole (and it may do better out from under the shadow of SW. and Close Encounters of the 3rd Kind as they were both started before SW took off. Of course BH may not make it as Disney was unsure on it until SW took off so exact timing on that May go either way.

But ultimately I think you will get a “Big” sci fi space opera movie. Westerns were slowing down and someone will think up the idea of an adventure movie/western in space. It may not be as big as SW was but it will happen and it will be a hit. How big a hit? That is the question.

So Movies will change (no Space Balls for example) but you will see more Sci Fi as the technology was making that more economically feasible and the audience was looking for something to replace western and kids were getting electronics and computers so they were getting into high tech so Sci Fi was going to happen but probably more slowly then the huge hit that was SW.

TV will lose a couple short lived shows that were not that good (and May see more attention on Dr Who in the US as a result ).
But the big thing is the lose if ILM. And the push to sell toys may not become as big a thing.
oh and we don’t get the whole argument over Hardware Wars...
 

marathag

Banned
As mentioned the extant examples are rather juveniles until ST in the states. Perhaps a Who inspired US series? O
One of the reasons given for the 4th season of Lost in Space getting canned, while had average ratings, demographics trended juvenile, and not the desired 18-34 group, that had disposable income and therfore worthy of higher value commercials
 
It is hard to predict what will happen. On TV little changes until the lat 70s. When we DONT see Battle Star Galactica and we don’t see Space 1999. Without Star Wars we just don’t get those two Oh and Buck Rogers goes with the butterfly.
On Screen we lose a number of Movies. Most of them poor knock offs. So goodbye to bad rubbish.
But we also lose Indiana Jones as without SW we don’t get GL and Spielberg sitting around dreaming that up. And without Indy Spielberg may not have as much power and influence. He will still be big but may take a bit longer without Indy.
We also lose ILM. And that will cripple a LOT of special effects heavy movies until something takes it place.

As for Sci Fi movies. You still probably get Black Hole (and it may do better out from under the shadow of SW. and Close Encounters of the 3rd Kind as they were both started before SW took off. Of course BH may not make it as Disney was unsure on it until SW took off so exact timing on that May go either way.

But ultimately I think you will get a “Big” sci fi space opera movie. Westerns were slowing down and someone will think up the idea of an adventure movie/western in space. It may not be as big as SW was but it will happen and it will be a hit. How big a hit? That is the question.

So Movies will change (no Space Balls for example) but you will see more Sci Fi as the technology was making that more economically feasible and the audience was looking for something to replace western and kids were getting electronics and computers so they were getting into high tech so Sci Fi was going to happen but probably more slowly then the huge hit that was SW.

TV will lose a couple short lived shows that were not that good (and May see more attention on Dr Who in the US as a result ).
But the big thing is the lose if ILM. And the push to sell toys may not become as big a thing.
oh and we don’t get the whole argument over Hardware Wars...
Definitely agree RE space westerns. I think a US knock off of who might happen if a network wants to fill a gap. Flying saucer sci fi probably stays longer.
 
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