Seven Days to the River Rhine: the Third World War - a TL

To say nothing of lesbian prostitutes.
And frankly, many sex workers would ignore their own sexual orientation
For example, straight guys who would get fucked by male clients (even if they don't like it) because money. Or asexuals prostituting themselves even though they would never have sex with anyone otherwise.
 
Whoa that update was really long - personally I'd split it into two, the USA and the Europe.

It's the longest thus far.

Ukraine and Nagorno-Karabakh portions seem inspired by recent IRL events?

Somewhat.

So pretty much back to HRE.

Yes.

Apart from this, this is like the third time you refer to women engaging in survival sex/prostitution. But no mentions of male heterosexuals engaging in the same acts strikes me as somewhat weird.... in a complete collapse like this, male whores would probably be almost as common as female ones....

Ah, yes. You probably have a point there. That would presumably be heterosexual men catering to male clients I assume. While male sex workers catering to women do exist, they're a lot rarer than the reverse from what I can tell. I will make an edit there though.

To say nothing of lesbian prostitutes.

Don't know enough to comment if this would be a thing.
 
I have two questions concerning Chapter XII: Post-War Conflict, 1986-1994. My research showed that in the fall of 1983, the PLO was in the midst of a civil war, with one faction supporting Arafat and the other backed by Syria. Arafat may or may not have been in Tripoli, Lebanon around late Sept. 1983. It is my understanding that Syria had turned against him. So, how was he able to survive and make it to Iraq to found the Palestinian state in exile. Also, what happened to Syria in the war? Did the US target Soviet sites in the country with nuclear strikes and if not, what happened to the Soviets there and Syria in general. Just curious. Thanks.

I did not have the US hit Syria ITTL. As to Arafat, if he really was in Lebanon at the time then I imagine someone would've have had to smuggle him out of the country.
 
Macrahanish on the west coast of Scotland has the longest runway in Europe, so unless it was (probably) glassed, any radiation/fallout should be cleared by the westerly winds off the Atlantic. STS 9 could possibly land there.
 

STS-9 landed at Edwards OTL. I'm not convinced the Soviets would expend a nuke on Edwards.
If they do, then the first alternate is probably White Sands: STS-3 landed there in March 1982.
Other designated alternate landing sites are Lincoln, Nebraska (probably nuked), Cape Verde, and Gran Canaria.

However, this site lists lots of emergency landing sites. I'm sure at least *one* of them will be functional enough to get the shuttle on the ground more-or-less intact.
Also "In the event of an emergency deorbit that would bring the orbiter down in an area not within range of a designated emergency landing site, the orbiter was theoretically capable of landing on any paved runway that was at least 3 km (9,800 ft) long"
 
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Apart from this, this is like the third time you refer to women engaging in survival sex/prostitution. But no mentions of male heterosexuals engaging in the same acts strikes me as somewhat weird.... in a complete collapse like this, male whores would probably be almost as common as female ones....
Not really, because of human sexual dynamics that come from simple biology. There would be far more demand for women. The value of sperm and the male investment in reproduction is far less than that of eggs/women's investment, and that's reflected in our behaviour. Men can afford to spray and pray whereas women in a post-apocalyptic environment without access to contraceptives would have to risk dealing with 9 months of pregnancy during a nuclear famine and breakdown of public order, after interacting with some (in all likelyhood) nasty smelly survivor who looks like a bum. I can't see those suitors being particularly appealing to anyone except homosexual men, and they are too small a percentage of the population and male homosexual behaviour too taboo in Western culture for it to be worth more than the mention it was given in the last post (which is fair). Extremely desperate men in a post-nuclear survival situation will probably either join a gang to raid (and probably get executed for it), or become somebody's hired goon/serf since that's the way men pay with their bodies in a pre-industrial economy.

I do find it unrealistic how cheap American prostitutes in the 2000s are depicted as being compared to the local cost of living however, if it takes like 6 hours of very degrading risky work to buy a loaf of bread, there must be so many prostitutes I don't think there would even be enough johns to allow them to earn a living wage. Assuming this is a place where a monetary economy has actually been reestablished for prostitutes to recieve cash payments from (as opposed to a rural barter system), it will also probably be able to accommodate foreign buyers who can jack the price up (thus the prostitute's wages) and the prostitute will need to be able to afford the amenities there (probably better since they can be protected against disease and have electricity, also can you imagine the disease risk in places without basic sanitation?). Also, if being a prostitute pays so badly prostitutes would inevitably drop out to do other things with more of an incentive (which there absolutely will be, since most of America now has to make everything by hand, which takes up a lot of women's time in pre-industrial economies). Even in third world countries IRL I would imagine prostitutes usually earn enough to pay for low-quality rent/boarding (because, well, they have to). If they're being trafficked, then the pimp still has to feed them in a cost-effective manner. Unless I'm forgetting how Threads-esque America would still look in this TL, even though the nuclear winter was not as bad as depicted in that film, and maybe those kinds of favours in exchange for side income is just a result of very dystopian cultural breakdown.
 
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@Onkel Willie
Also, I find the part of the last post mentioning Chinese Triads and Mexican Cartels in the USA doing human and drug trafficking interesting. I feel like if you want to go down the route of America becoming an exploited undeveloped country (which makes sense), you could probably have surviving companies from the Asia-Pacific buy out a lot of America's infrastructure and remaining economic activity. The tendrils of foreign corporations taking over work and infrastructure can bring foreign capital and development into America, America is probably in a disorganised, low-trust enough situation that its leadership probably won't mind personally benefiting from selling it off. Look at China's recent involvement in Africa for example. There were fears of Japan's economic dominance in the 80s from what I know until the Plaza Accord and the asset bubble collapsing ruined them, which didn't happen in this TL, and also Japan is rather intact as a country after WWIII.

It makes me think of a film that doesn't have nuclear war in its plot called Prayer of The Rollerboys, in which the US economy collapses, Japanese and other corporations totally buy out the collapsed US, the government has broken down, destitute young Americans are kept in fenced homeless/refugee camps and there's a white supremacist drug-dealing gang trying to take over LA (what remains of US law enforcement has to try and stop them, and other foreign organised crime is also depicted as being in the area)
 
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Despite all its horrors, even the Third World War didn’t prove to be “the war to end all wars” because, apparently, war seemed to be part of human nature. That humanity had learned very little from its three world wars was the correct but also sad conclusion. Instead of cooperating, people remained divided into groups based on language, culture, religion and shared history and tried to secure the resources required by their group to survive at the expense of other groups. It was survival of the fittest.

War, war never changes.
 
Interesting look at the world 20 years later!

I would honestly have expected Latin America in particular, but also Japan, Australia and New Zealand to heavily assist American recovery and rebuilding precisely because of North American natural resources.

Overall though I think you have painted a quite realistic picture of what the US looks like internally, as well as Europe and the former USSR. I do think the US has the capability to rise back to Great Power status given enough time - but I doubt the same for Russia, France and Britain.

One question- what’s the remaining nuclear capacity, if any, of the US, UK, and France? I’d have to think they each have SOMETHING left.

Based on the story so far, it doesn't seem un reasonable to assume that the US might have dozens of nuclear warheads at their disposal (the surviving aircraft carrier might have contributed some of them ?) Delivery systems and maintenance for the warheads would likely be more of problematic, but a small force of fission bombs delivered by aircraft would seem within the relm of the possible for the US IMHO. I'm thinking that even if replacing the tritium in more advanced weapons was impossible for the US that the fission primary stages could likely still be expected to produce some nuclear yield. From a practical perspective I can't see a surviving US using or threatening to use them in any circumstances other than an all out invasion of what is left of the continental US.

It also doesn't seem entirely out of the question to me that the US might entertain a trade of sorts with their (former ?) allies along the lines of providing samples of advanced nuclear weapons in return for significant foreign aid. Their (former ?) allies might also have concerns about "loose nukes" in the US and might be prepared to offer foreign aid in return for helping the US secure their stock pile ?

I'm also having a very hard time envisioning the US government being prepared to put much in the way of resources into maintaining a nuclear capability but they might not be prepared to completely rid themselves of such a capability either. A lot might depend on just how much documentation and knowledge survived the war and how complex any surviving weapons were. Depending on what actually survived I suppose in theory it might eventually be possible for the US to produce new nuclear warheads using fissile materials that were salvaged from pre war weapons, but I have my doubts that a US government in this fictional time line would want to do that.

As previously mentioned there is perhaps some possibility of the US keeping a modest fleet of SSBN's with un fired SLBM's going for some time after the war, but at some point I would expect they would become unsustainable or be seen as depreciating assets that could be traded for needed foreign aid while they still had some life left in them (perhaps the US might retain the actual nuclear weapons if only to provide a source of fissile materials for other possible future uses.)

Lots of possibilities for the US depending on exactly what happened during the war IMHO, but to recap I just don't see the US wanting to put much effort into maintaining a nuclear capability post war. The more I think about this, I suspect that fissile materials might be seen as very valuable assets by the US that could perhaps be traded for vital products and or perhaps horded for some future use. Conceivably there might also be some efforts made to consolidate any surviving tritium, and perhaps the US at some point might look to trade it for something very valuable ? (I believe tritum decays quite quickly.)

In the case of the UK and France the possibilities seem much more limited as they had far fewer weapons pre war, but it doesn't seem entirely out of the question they might each have a handful of nuclear warheads left (to recap a prior post of mine, maybe a surviving UK naval vessel brings back a few WE177's.)

Edit to add the political aspects of the relations between a post war US that has been largely devastated and allies that sustained much less devastation might be interesting as well. I could see Spain and Australia for example being very interested in getting their hands on some of the more advanced surviving US tech and likely having key products that the US needed. I wonder if NATO and ANZUS for example would be formally dissolved or somehow kept alive post war ?

Perhaps at some point in the distant future in this fictional time line , the US and some combination of Australia, Spain and perhaps Japan might work together to produce simple more or less "guaranteed to work" fission weapons using fissile material recycled from surviving US pre war nuclear weapons ? The US contribution might simply be handing over some pre war weapons in exchange for a smaller number of newer weapons, or depending on how much documentation and knowledge survived they might play a more active role in the project. Or the US might simply want more foreign aid and not want any new weapons or perhaps some combination of aid and new weapons might be wanted by the US.
 
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man, he asked me how hard the American migration in Mexico will be. Would it be possible to buy an American wife as a way to get them out of the nuclear hell they are in?
 
I do find it unrealistic how cheap American prostitutes in the 2000s are depicted as being compared to the local cost of living however, if it takes like 6 hours of very degrading risky work to buy a loaf of bread, there must be so many prostitutes I don't think there would even be enough johns to allow them to earn a living wage. Assuming this is a place where a monetary economy has actually been reestablished for prostitutes to recieve cash payments from (as opposed to a rural barter system), it will also probably be able to accommodate foreign buyers who can jack the price up (thus the prostitute's wages) and the prostitute will need to be able to afford the amenities there (probably better since they can be protected against disease and have electricity, also can you imagine the disease risk in places without basic sanitation?). Also, if being a prostitute pays so badly prostitutes would inevitably drop out to do other things with more of an incentive (which there absolutely will be, since most of America now has to make everything by hand, which takes up a lot of women's time in pre-industrial economies). Even in third world countries IRL I would imagine prostitutes usually earn enough to pay for low-quality rent/boarding (because, well, they have to). If they're being trafficked, then the pimp still has to feed them in a cost-effective manner. Unless I'm forgetting how Threads-esque America would still look in this TL, even though the nuclear winter was not as bad as depicted in that film, and maybe those kinds of favours in exchange for side income is just a result of very dystopian cultural breakdown.

You actually make good points. I guess I took the post-apocalyptic pessimism a bit too far there. I will change that.
 
This is a really great timeline, but what is the current situation in Egypt after the war, and can you write a future timeline about Egypt?
Depends if the Soviets targeted Egypt because of the presence of the Suez.

Although I don't know how Soviet-Egypt relations were at this period.
man, he asked me how hard the American migration in Mexico will be. Would it be possible to buy an American wife as a way to get them out of the nuclear hell they are in?
Probably a range from genuinely consenting mail order brides to genuinely kidnapped and trafficked women.
I could see at least 1-2 million American refugees make it to Mexico. They will be subject to discrimination or even exploitation. Think of it as a reverse scenario where coyotes and smugglers would cater to American refugees instead of Latino illegal immigrants.

Yes, it is already likely that American women are going to sell themselves. The previous chapters had female European refugees selling themselves just to get a ride out of the warzone at the start of the conventional phase of the war.
 
I could see at least 1-2 million American refugees make it to Mexico. They will be subject to discrimination or even exploitation. Think of it as a reverse scenario where coyotes and smugglers would cater to American refugees instead of Latino illegal immigrants.
The irony will not be lost on anybody.
 
The irony will not be lost on anybody.
I wonder if emigration from the US to Mexico (and perhaps other nations) would be encouraged, tolerated, discouraged or actively prevented (for at least some individuals) by the US Govt ?

I’m wondering if Selective service (or perhaps even the draft ?) is operating in the US ?
 
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Depends if the Soviets targeted Egypt because of the presence of the Suez.

Although I don't know how Soviet-Egypt relations were at this period.


I could see at least 1-2 million American refugees make it to Mexico. They will be subject to discrimination or even exploitation. Think of it as a reverse scenario where coyotes and smugglers would cater to American refugees instead of Latino illegal immigrants.

Yes, it is already likely that American women are going to sell themselves. The previous chapters had female European refugees selling themselves just to get a ride out of the warzone at the start of the conventional phase of the war.

Probably a range from genuinely consenting mail order brides to genuinely kidnapped and trafficked women.
Would the US govt at some point be in any position to take action if it became widely known that US citizens were being taken against their will to near by Nations and or being severely exploited ?

Perhaps that might serve as a catalyst to rebuild the U.S. military ? Or perhaps it might provide an excuse for a subsequent U.S. war of expansion into relatively un contaminated territory ?

I’m thinking other Govts might want to make at least token efforts to suppress organized kidnapping groups and dial down the worst of the exploitation ?
 
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I doubt the United States will have the ability to go to war with anyone until the next century. Its economy is something similar to the emergence of primitive trade.

It has a lot of other problems, like warlords and also religious cults, which I don't know if they were mentioned. It could be worse and go down a route in which they never recovered, and enter a self-destructive vicious cycle.

Besides, a war is not very good in the eyes, the only one that could go to war without being defeated would be Canada. Because Mexico, even with her problems, could resist an invasion.
 
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