A thought to give a parallel to OTL. iTTL, apparently both Yucatan *and* Chiapas appear to have had independence/revolts muted from OTL, annexing a formerly independent state would give TTL's Mexico an equivalent sore...
 
Interesting note here is Britain's very different attitude to the Mediterranean as they help build the Greek navy - they don't seem to consider it quite so crucial as they did IOTL, likely as a result of Suez being French ITTL. Hence it's easy to see them turn their gaze to the sub-Saharan African coast or Central America in order to keep the passageway to India open, rather than an unreliable (if still relatively speedy) Mediterranean path (that'll likely be even less reliable during the CEW) and thus possibly being somewhat neutral to Italian/Spanish expansionism on the Med (the repercussions for Malta and Gibraltar being questionable but I doubt Britain just gives either of them up unless the empire is completely imploding). Also now I can't remember if Cyprus went British ITTL or if the Ottomans still have it.
Gibraltar and Aden must have a lot of attention compared to OTL, since keeping the French Mediterranean Fleet bottled up and away from the main routes to India will be the main strategic aim of the Admiralty planners.

How close is the Franco-Austrian naval collaboration at the Med? The Russians had plans to place a fleet to Bizerte (where the White Fleet ultimately ended up in OTL) in 1912 in OTL, and I'd assume the Austrians would also find it a potentially suitable base of operations.
 
I could see this happening as a way to appease the Mexican public, yeah. It would make the region an ulcer for Mexico for a while (which could make for some fascinating future narratives in the region), but there would be some benefits. Depends on if those benefits outweighs the problems (and how much of their recently nationalised economy the Mexicans get back to keep from the Americans).

Short term gains - sooner payment of debts and such via cash crops such as banana, coffee and sugar (assuming those aren't monopolised by US fruit companies in the aftermath)

Long term gains - additional untapped mineral, oil, and gas wealth when that is eventually discovered, greater tourism potential assuming the area is developed, control over the majority of Mayan historical sites (which based on the previous thread could possibly even restart the whole Mesoamerican cultural fascination and architectural movement)

Downsides - guaranteed guerilla action for a long period, likely additional American commercial influence in the region, possible concern from the UK over Belize, and an eternally fearful relationship from Nicaraga and El Salvador
Yeah, I find myself increasingly talking myself into Mexico deciding to hand off Baja to the US in return for a free hand in annexing Guatemala while acceding Honduras/El Salvador as American/Nicaraguan spheres of interest (and let's be real, it's really an American sphere of interest). I don't think I've seen such a thing done before in an alt-hist, and even in 1915ish Guatemala was probably viewed as considerably more valuable than Baja (and still is honestly, besides some mining in the central mountains there's little in Baja of mineral value). Gives Mexico an additional bi-coastal position, and yes that does leave a massive Mayan ulcer for years to come, which could be interesting to explore...

(and hopefully @Capibara doesn't hate such an outcome too much, though I'm still on the fence about Baja vs. partitioned western Kentucky being the 36th and final state!)
 
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A thought to give a parallel to OTL. iTTL, apparently both Yucatan *and* Chiapas appear to have had independence/revolts muted from OTL, annexing a formerly independent state would give TTL's Mexico an equivalent sore...
So far, sure. And zapatismo isn't going away anytime soon as an ideal, either...
Gibraltar and Aden must have a lot of attention compared to OTL, since keeping the French Mediterranean Fleet bottled up and away from the main routes to India will be the main strategic aim of the Admiralty planners.

How close is the Franco-Austrian naval collaboration at the Med? The Russians had plans to place a fleet to Bizerte (where the White Fleet ultimately ended up in OTL) in 1912 in OTL, and I'd assume the Austrians would also find it a potentially suitable base of operations.
Yeah Aden is considerably more of a British fortress ITTL and probably earned governance independent of the Raj much earlier; Djibouti is a considerably bigger strategic problem for them than it was IOTL here, after all.

I would say relatively close; indeed most of the French home fleet is probably geared towards the Med, maybe 60/40 (I'm discounting fleet assets in Cam Ranh, Kaohsiung and Busan here). Bizerte would be an excellent place for joint fleet operations, and gives the Austrians a piece of their fleet permanently out of the Adriatic bottleneck, which has some appeal. I should write about this.
 
The Opium Lords: A History of China's Drug Cartels
"...communal societies not just in China proper but in the diaspora; the tong was a central part of the Overseas Chinese community's daily and social life. The Great American War years were highly chaotic, as the limitations on Chinese immigration to the West Coast of the United States expired and tens of thousands of Chinese, particularly from Guangdong and Fujian, made the journey over the Pacific to work in shipyards, rail depots, shell factories or synthetic nitrate plants to keep the war effort going, concentrating heavily in Seattle, Portland and San Francisco. For these new arrivals, who were often (though not always) young single men who spoke not a lick of English in a new country that treated them on their best day with hostility and suspicion, the tong was an absolutely crucial network for finding steady pay, for connecting with longstanding Chinese residents, and, increasingly, for protection. Out of the tong emerged close-knit groups of men who made their value to Chinese laborers fairly clear - in return for deference and assumed leadership within the community, and perhaps pay, they would ensure that work could be found and the white majority, particularly in rougher towns like Portland, left them be under threat of organized intimidation.

Though Chinese were almost uniformly banned from voting in the United States (and Canada, where similar albeit smaller such communities formed), many of the men who went to work and study in North America in time returned home and brought with them the tong's importance, and such societies sprouted up as key pillars of patronage and influence not just along the West Coast ports but in Hong Kong, Singapore, and other outposts throughout Southeast Asia where there were small but concentrated Chinese communities, often merchants who were always a class treated with some skepticism by traditionally Confucian Chinese. From the diaspora tong and similar networks in China proper, one can start to see the architecture of not just the secret societies that had led to the Guomindang's blossoming but also more formal and explicit avenues of influence from pooled pressure and communal support. The tong took care of the people, and in return the people took care of those at the top of the tong. Western societies often dismissed Chinese culture as alien in its respect for hierarchy, but never stopped and really pondered why Chinese immigrants felt such attachment to community and the security of a straightforward transplantation of cultural norms brought from home. Before long, separate tong organizations in San Francisco and Seattle began to butt heads with one another, rivaling one another, needing something that the competition could not provide - much like their counterparts back in China, which increasingly began to look less like fraternal brotherhoods and more like societies with their own internal governance that unofficially but nonetheless quite formally ran entire neighborhoods of Canton, Foochow and before long Shanghai in the absence of a local government sponsored by the rotten Second Republic that people could trust..."

- The Opium Lords: A History of China's Drug Cartels
 
Reading this and thinking of sports discussions on this timeline i was picturing a situation like Maradona where he was allegedly brought to Napoli with mafia money, a chinese cartel bringing a star of world football to their pet team.
Looking forward to reading more about the west coat organised crime world as it develops, im guessing lots of men with combat experience after the war will be perfect for these organisations
 
Reading this and thinking of sports discussions on this timeline i was picturing a situation like Maradona where he was allegedly brought to Napoli with mafia money, a chinese cartel bringing a star of world football to their pet team.
Looking forward to reading more about the west coat organised crime world as it develops, im guessing lots of men with combat experience after the war will be perfect for these organisations
I’d never heard that about Maradona but the only thing that’d make that story more on brand is if the mob paid him in bricks of cocaine

In terms of combat experience, most of these Chinese men in the West aren’t joining the Army so they won’t have done much on the front lines, but I’d wager a decent number of them may have fought in the 1908-13 Chinese Civil War and know a thing or two from that.
 
Just curious, Charles Romley Alder Wright the British Chemist who created diacetylmorphine in 1874 iOTL did so at approximately the same time iTTL?

*short* chemistry lesson here - There are two "-OH' groups in "back corners" of the morphine molecule, react *each* one with an Acetic Acid (Vinegar) and have the -OH in the Acetic Acid and the -OH in the Morphine react and eliminate water.

The result, diacetylmorphine AKA Heroin is 2-3 times more effective in regards to pain and high...
 
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@KingSweden24 the chapter was an incredible one as always, really got deep there man.
Thanks!
Just curious, Charles Romley Alder Wright the British Chemist who created diacetylmorphine in 1874 iOTL did so at approximately the same time iTTL?

*short* chemistry lesson here - There are two "-OH' groups in "back corners" of the morphine molecule, react *each* one with an Acetic Acid (Vinegar) and have the -OH in the Acetic Acid and the -OH in the Morphine react and eliminate water.

The result, diacetylmorphine AKA Heroin is 2-3 times more effective in regards to pain and high...
Don’t see why not. Thanks to the cartels in China, heroin will be a way bigger problem ITTL than it was OTL; where it was already a pretty gigantic problem
 
Thanks!

Don’t see why not. Thanks to the cartels in China, heroin will be a way bigger problem ITTL than it was OTL; where it was already a pretty gigantic problem
I'd *love* to see a chart of morphine(equivalent) coming out of China between 1800 and today iOTL. (More or less, what helped repress it, creation of ROC, phases of the Chinese Civil War or the victory of the PRC. )
 
You know, with Tongs having greater presense in the US due to a bigger Chinese diaspora, I wonder if we won't see the Chinese ending up with a 'mobster' stereotype akin to Italian-Americans in OTL (and likely the ATL as well). Leaving aside the fact that there could be some MAJOR battles (and alliances) between Italian-American and Chinese-American organized crime factions (and, of course, OTHER ethnic mobs - because ... yeah, they were there too) :)
 
You know, with Tongs having greater presense in the US due to a bigger Chinese diaspora, I wonder if we won't see the Chinese ending up with a 'mobster' stereotype akin to Italian-Americans in OTL (and likely the ATL as well). Leaving aside the fact that there could be some MAJOR battles (and alliances) between Italian-American and Chinese-American organized crime factions (and, of course, OTHER ethnic mobs - because ... yeah, they were there too) :)
This is more or less where we’re headed. Chinese will have a very, VERY different reputation ITTL in the US as far as unfair stereotypes go. Think more “dope-slinging gangsters” than “good at math,” with a dash of Yellow Peril thrown in, too. (Italians are, at least, Europeans even if they’re Catholic)
 
This is more or less where we’re headed. Chinese will have a very, VERY different reputation ITTL in the US as far as unfair stereotypes go. Think more “dope-slinging gangsters” than “good at math,” with a dash of Yellow Peril thrown in, too. (Italians are, at least, Europeans even if they’re Catholic)

I wonder what voting bloc the Chinese are going to fall into (are they allowed to naturalize? ) - as immigrants, they are likely to fall into the Dem camp, but I'm also guessing that the ethnic bluecollar communities which make up much of the Dems base are going to be less than welcoming to Chinese laborers.
 
Some ramblings.....

You know as we head into 1916, I am still increasingly wondering who the US President will be, because I am really not sure Hughes will get a second Term.

We know that Lindley Garrison comes back to being Secretary of State again after Root, So from that alone we know its a Democrat who gets the White House after Hughes. We know that Occupation ends in 1921, and the idea of a Democratic Presidency winning in 1916, and pushing the war to its end is actually fascinating, and them also dictating terms to the Confederacy as well, .... but that would mean they would have to screw up badly for them to lose the Presidency in 1920?

But then again, Hughes scraping through the 1916 election and winning only for the second term to be a bit of a screw up would not surprise me one bit either.

Al Smith we know will be President at some point, and he is a democrat. . Pershing as well, we believe will be President as well, but he doesn't scream Democrat to me, unless it like, one of convenience.

1916 election is going to be interesting, as is 1920.
 
I wonder what voting bloc the Chinese are going to fall into (are they allowed to naturalize? ) - as immigrants, they are likely to fall into the Dem camp, but I'm also guessing that the ethnic bluecollar communities which make up much of the Dems base are going to be less than welcoming to Chinese laborers.
That’s the kicker. With the hostility the Dem base would have towards them, especially with West Coast racial anxieties about Asian people, that’s not as natural a home for them, as it would be for White Ethnics you can just plug into the machine and spin off their own parish

Liberals aren’t exactly their natural habitat either, though, at least not until you get a few generations down the line with suburbanization and so on, and I don’t know that generations of Chinese in TTL’s context will have the same focus on educational attainment in the US (though this could be a cultural thing, I really don’t know, and immigrant parents of all walks of life are pretty “why aren’t you a doctor” as the stereotype goes) that would make them natural Libs

Long winded way of saying who knows haha
Some ramblings.....

You know as we head into 1916, I am still increasingly wondering who the US President will be, because I am really not sure Hughes will get a second Term.

We know that Lindley Garrison comes back to being Secretary of State again after Root, So from that alone we know its a Democrat who gets the White House after Hughes. We know that Occupation ends in 1921, and the idea of a Democratic Presidency winning in 1916, and pushing the war to its end is actually fascinating, and them also dictating terms to the Confederacy as well, .... but that would mean they would have to screw up badly for them to lose the Presidency in 1920?

But then again, Hughes scraping through the 1916 election and winning only for the second term to be a bit of a screw up would not surprise me one bit either.

Al Smith we know will be President at some point, and he is a democrat. . Pershing as well, we believe will be President as well, but he doesn't scream Democrat to me, unless it like, one of convenience.

1916 election is going to be interesting, as is 1920.
They will indeed both be interesting, and I’ll leave it at that
 
That’s the kicker. With the hostility the Dem base would have towards them, especially with West Coast racial anxieties about Asian people, that’s not as natural a home for them, as it would be for White Ethnics you can just plug into the machine and spin off their own parish

Liberals aren’t exactly their natural habitat either, though, at least not until you get a few generations down the line with suburbanization and so on, and I don’t know that generations of Chinese in TTL’s context will have the same focus on educational attainment in the US (though this could be a cultural thing, I really don’t know, and immigrant parents of all walks of life are pretty “why aren’t you a doctor” as the stereotype goes) that would make them natural Libs

Long winded way of saying who knows haha
So clearly they're Socialists.
Having a viable third party (that isn't there solely to siphon enough votes off of one 'major' party to allow the other party a minority 'win') in the US would be nice....
 
That’s the kicker. With the hostility the Dem base would have towards them, especially with West Coast racial anxieties about Asian people, that’s not as natural a home for them, as it would be for White Ethnics you can just plug into the machine and spin off their own parish

Liberals aren’t exactly their natural habitat either, though, at least not until you get a few generations down the line with suburbanization and so on, and I don’t know that generations of Chinese in TTL’s context will have the same focus on educational attainment in the US (though this could be a cultural thing, I really don’t know, and immigrant parents of all walks of life are pretty “why aren’t you a doctor” as the stereotype goes) that would make them natural Libs
That, in my opinion, depends. I feel like with a nearly two-party system, the Liberals become the default choice, and with the Christian China Lobby, there might be a focus on "moral uplift" and anti-drug campaigns with Chinese-American politicians, especially if many Chinese immigrants become businessmen despite the harsh discrimination. Remember, when excluded from traditional blue-collar jobs, most Chinese-Americans will have to find work with white-collar jobs, or as merchants and entrepreneurs, which naturally lends itself towards the Liberals. This trend, plus the fact that a Chinese-American immigrant is more likely than an average Chinese person to be Christian, especially from recent missionary work, means that the Liberals will likely see the Chinese-American or even just Asian vote as a key demographic.
 
In some sense, the question of where the Chinese go as a block is *sort of* similar to the question of where the Jews go as a block iOTL...
 
That, in my opinion, depends. I feel like with a nearly two-party system, the Liberals become the default choice, and with the Christian China Lobby, there might be a focus on "moral uplift" and anti-drug campaigns with Chinese-American politicians, especially if many Chinese immigrants become businessmen despite the harsh discrimination. Remember, when excluded from traditional blue-collar jobs, most Chinese-Americans will have to find work with white-collar jobs, or as merchants and entrepreneurs, which naturally lends itself towards the Liberals. This trend, plus the fact that a Chinese-American immigrant is more likely than an average Chinese person to be Christian, especially from recent missionary work, means that the Liberals will likely see the Chinese-American or even just Asian vote as a key demographic.
That’s sorta been my thinking. It be more “Canadian” in a sense, and it’d fit with the overall mien of familiar but strange vibe I’m going for where white ethnics remain supermajority Democrat deep into the 21st century but black and Asian voters skew Liberal
In some sense, the question of where the Chinese go as a block is *sort of* similar to the question of where the Jews go as a block iOTL...
Jews, at least Ashkenazim, made sense in the same general block as other Eastern and Southern European white ethnics. What’s interesting in researching this time period is just how wide the gulf between American Jews with decades in the US and new arrivals was culturally, economically and politically
 
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