iTTL: Swedish Flu and Spanish Bikini models.
Unfortunately, iTTL, Scandanavia Against the World isn't a Cartoon, it is a Military alliance.
Sequel de Mayo (Cinco de Mayo, Vol. II)
- Thread starter KingSweden24
- Start date
Unfortunately, iTTL, Scandanavia Against the World isn't a Cartoon, it is a Military alliance.
Yeah, I'm leaning towards "Union Flu" or "Dixie Flu" in that case. The war will have been over tby that point, meaning efforts to suppress news of the Flu won't be as strong (nor, really, even needed) on the part of the union. And the South, which might want to do such a thing (though maybe not - they are probably desperate for international aid after the war) won't be in much of a position to do so.
I know it's not in the cards but I can't help but think how this US, and the world in general, would react to a hegemonic French Second Empire in Europe, especially one that's as reactionary as this one is and would be in the wake of an alt CEW French victory.
Also very belatedly I'm in favor of the idea of the US taking Baja while letting Mexico go after (and possibly even annex) Guatemala because that would be weird. It would mean that (western) Kentucky wouldn't go back to the Union but that in and of itself could be lead to black-run Kentucky being its own Liberia upon the Ohio (but with less oppression of the natives). Plus it would already have company in the form of whatever the Indian Territory ends up being called (what is that going to be called anyway?) and Texas. Even without factoring in the splintering of Canada in the late 20th century, that leaves the North American mainland peppered with quite a few smaller states already, and I really really look forward to seeing the different ways all of those could go.
Also very belatedly I'm in favor of the idea of the US taking Baja while letting Mexico go after (and possibly even annex) Guatemala because that would be weird. It would mean that (western) Kentucky wouldn't go back to the Union but that in and of itself could be lead to black-run Kentucky being its own Liberia upon the Ohio (but with less oppression of the natives). Plus it would already have company in the form of whatever the Indian Territory ends up being called (what is that going to be called anyway?) and Texas. Even without factoring in the splintering of Canada in the late 20th century, that leaves the North American mainland peppered with quite a few smaller states already, and I really really look forward to seeing the different ways all of those could go.
Re: the Flu of 1918, good discussion - I’ve given some thought to how best to incorporate that, but something like “Dixie Flu” could make a lot of sense for the reasons describe. A World not broken by four years of economic collapse probably experiences that event very differently, too (since CEW doesn’t hit until 1919)
As for Baja… @Capibara will be glad to hear I’ve eventually come around against that idea, thanks in part to users whose opinions I value being fairly uniform in DMs as being ambivalent at best about it.
Guatemala as a Mexican province might still be in the cards though 🙃
Even as a Swede I can fully get onboard with Spanish bikini modelsiTTL: Swedish Flu and Spanish Bikini models.
Unfortunately, iTTL, Scandanavia Against the World isn't a Cartoon, it is a Military alliance.
An AH where France wins the CEW would be interesting, that’s for sure. Not the story I want to tell of course but if anyone wants to do a TTL alt-hist guest post on that, I’d welcome it
As for Baja… @Capibara will be glad to hear I’ve eventually come around against that idea, thanks in part to users whose opinions I value being fairly uniform in DMs as being ambivalent at best about it.
Guatemala as a Mexican province might still be in the cards though 🙃
To incorporate the Dixie Flu...
I don't think we have an idea what starts the CEW. Perhaps the Influenza epidemic takes out a King or an entire group of Royals that are a stabilizing Force or even something somewhat similiar to the War of the Spanish Succession where the first X people in like for the Y throne all die within a week or so leaving someone who never expected to Inherit the throne.
(The equivalent of knockout out enough of Q Victoria's Grandchildren that the successor in 1914 by British Law of the dying George V is Wilhelm II of Germany, though with Q Victoria's Fecundity, that's about two dozen people)
I don't think we have an idea what starts the CEW. Perhaps the Influenza epidemic takes out a King or an entire group of Royals that are a stabilizing Force or even something somewhat similiar to the War of the Spanish Succession where the first X people in like for the Y throne all die within a week or so leaving someone who never expected to Inherit the throne.
(The equivalent of knockout out enough of Q Victoria's Grandchildren that the successor in 1914 by British Law of the dying George V is Wilhelm II of Germany, though with Q Victoria's Fecundity, that's about two dozen people)
maybe it shoul;d take out the Belgian ROyal family, hence why Napoleon and France takes over. The French would be invited in of course...for protection, of course.
America hasn’t conquered it. They just took Tijuana. Also, the Political elites will want to keep Mexico’s national integrity intact.
Not yet, I don't see why it couldn't be snatched up with little difficulty considering the way that I am assuming the US is going to let Mexico off in other parameters, maybe not asking for all that nationalized property back in exchange for the peninsula, or a better reason that I have yet to think of but @KingSweden24 would be able to deduce more easily.
TBF, actually putting troops on the *large* Majority of Baja California is a waste (Both for the US attacking and Mexico defending).
O yeah just realized something that's probably going to make the whole Ottomans are neglecting their non European provinces even worse.
Istanbul's given it can expand onto the ''European'' side is probably going to be even more massive city given their won't be any attempts at moving the capital for both safety given they lost the buffers in earlier wars and to make it easier to control the nation.
Istanbul's given it can expand onto the ''European'' side is probably going to be even more massive city given their won't be any attempts at moving the capital for both safety given they lost the buffers in earlier wars and to make it easier to control the nation.
One of the things I'm thinking about is the influence of outside powers in Honduras and El Salvador - given the current events it's likely they join Nicaragua as US client states, but the US has a lot on its plate and I wonder if this, perhaps, could fly under the radar? Nonetheless I do wonder to what extent the US will be enforcing control over the Honduran and Salvadoran political scenes or how kumbaya they regarding it (or, worse - they let the fruit companies take full charge there. THAT will turn into a human rights abuse clusterfuck real fast).
I never said anything about Baja requiring large amounts of soldiers.
Partly that from a storytelling perspective its a bit tropey and, at the end of the day, not that interesting, and also that there is no strategic interest of the US solved by its annexation that cannot be solved by just perma-leasing Magdalena Bay.
Reparations and unfettered access to the Mexican market is worth much more than some desert near California.
Good question. Considering my rather dark sensibilities, the chauvinistic revanchism of the postwar US towards its more supine defeateds (Chile, Centro, and the CSA - hey, alliteration!), and the general US preference OTL for just parking a favorable client in place and letting them get its hands dirty, I'd say we're probably headed for the latter, where Honduras in particular but also El Salvador simply become wholly operated subsidiaries of the Boston Fruit Company.
Like you said - bleak stuff.
But.... why not both? D:
Also, when did it become a trope because I don't really feel like its really broached that level of existence per se at least not yet
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"US gets Baja" happened on TL-191 and pretty much anything that happened in that TL became a trope, especially in Confederate TLs. And if they're already getting market access to Mexico and a lease on Magdalena Bay actual ownership of Baja is incredibly pointless. It only makes sense to mollify a US that is otherwise getting very little, if anything, else; if it's just gravy it's getting in peace deal with more substantive concessions, why bother at all?But.... why not both? D:
Also, when did it become a trope because I don't really feel like its really broached that level of existence per se at least not yet
Making Sense of the Senseless: The Great American War at 100
"...violent winds; the hurricane that had made landfall in East Texas in the middle of August had been the most powerful storm to hit the North American continent since a similar cyclone had nearly wiped Galveston off the map fifteen years before. Another potent storm followed thereafter mere weeks later, punching its way from near Jamaica across the western tip of Cuba, devastating Havana with heavy rains and forcing Mexican vessels out to sea from their safe harbor near Cozumel Island, where they were protecting the Yucatan Straits. Soon thereafter, an even more powerful storm would follow a similar course, slamming into New Orleans and flooding much of low-lying Louisiana, disrupting supplies from the Confederacy's last untouched state to elsewhere.
Of course, the hurricanes themselves were not so much the problem for the wavering Mexicans as the impact thereof. The Cozumel Squadron being forced out to sea caused it to be spotted by an American scout off the coast of Cuba as the hurricane subsided and coded telegraphy, which Mexico had not invested particularly in, allowed the weight of the reconstituted I Atlantic Squadron, also bobbing through the storm nearby, to regroup and steam rapidly to catch the Mexican fleet before it was able to reenter port. The Battle of Cozumel on September 11th was thus the second action in the course of about a month, after the Florida Straits, in which Mexico suffered severe and debilitating losses of capital ships, this time including not just cruisers but the sinking of the dreadnought Texcoco, the flagship of the Mexican Navy, the lead vessel of its class of four, and taking with it to the bottom of the Caribbean Prince Salvador de Iturbide y Green, the Emperor's adoptive son and the head of the Armada Imperial on the high seas. Lost with it were the cruisers Miguel Hidalgo and Tuxpan, and the battleship Yucatan and cruiser Principe Luis Maximiliano were able to escape destruction with severe damage and ensconce themselves in port, but were barely seaworthy at that point. It was the worst defeat for the Mexican Navy yet, now running on fumes after having suffered similar damages and losses near Key West in early August.
News of the disaster at Cozumel - Mexico's Hilton Head, as it was described in the increasingly agitated press - struck Maximilian extremely hard, and some observers questioned whether the Emperor would survive the death of his beloved adoptive son. Naval patrols were ordered much closer into shore, reneging on an agreement Mexico had with the Confederacy and thus leaving the Gulf essentially wide open for the interdiction of Confederate shipping as Europeans made it quietly known to the United States Navy's General Board that their expectations for protections on shipping did not, it turned out, extend west of Florida. A planned blockade of the ports of Tampa, Mobile, Galveston and most critically New Orleans was now possible and approved to begin as soon as possible; as a result, with the Confederate Navy at the bottom of the sea and the Mexican Navy seeming well on its way to joining them, Cozumel was the last major naval action of the war.
It also occurred roughly at the same time as twin disasters in the north of Mexico, too, which presaged the collapse just weeks later of the Carbajal government in Mexico City, the putsch of Bernardo Reyes and the subsequent end of the war for Mexico. The rebel army of Pancho Villa, now supported by a vibrant propaganda campaign in the United States and dissident Mexico, personally led his men into Chihuahua and sacked the armory and railroad station there. Casualties were few - Villa was careful not to attack Mexican conscripts when he could avoid it, unlike the Zapatista revolt that now controlled much of Chiapas and Oaxaca and threatened the ability of the Mexican state to dislodge its warlord general Victoriano Huerta from Guatemala City - but the psychological impact of the fall of the main supply node keeping Los Pasos fed was huge. Days later, with Chihuahua now in American hands after Villa left the gates open to John Hines' men and supplies running thin, General Aureliano Blanquet signaled to American forces on the Texas side of the Rio Bravo that they would retreat back into Mexico under a putative ceasefire lasting the next three days. Charles Gerhardt's forces responded by rapidly overwhelming the heavily Texan fighters left in El Paso and at the expiry of the ceasefire overran Blanquet's piecemeal defenses; after nearly a year and a half of fighting, the Battle of Los Pasos was over, and the key rail link between Mexico and the Confederate States (though one used progressively less as the battle raged) was in American hands.
All three losses simultaneously suggested to Mexican leadership the same thing: the war was over. American forces now held not just Hermosillo as they had since the start of the year but Paso del Norte and Chihuahua and could, presumably, strike either southwards or eastwards at leisure. Mexico's ports were blockaded and vulnerable to seizure by the US Marines from sea. The efforts to capture Nicaragua and incorporate it into a client Centroamerica had failed miserably to the tune of thousands of Mexicans dead in the Honduran jungle and with Centro's obliteration, with an errant Mexican general now running Guatemala as his personal fiefdom in practice. It was not clear to anybody in Mexico City, save for a handful of the northern oligarchs whose landholdings were being attacked by Villa nearly weekly, what exactly Mexico was doing still in the war. The Confederacy had started this mess, the Confederacy would have to get itself out. For much of the political establishment, including for the first time Emperor Maximilian and his inner circle of advisors and courtiers, it was time to accept reality - Mexico had lost, but it could still lose with its dignity. The secret efforts at peace feelers from Foreign Minister Pedro Lascurain were now to be encouraged, rather than kept silent..."
- Making Sense of the Senseless: The Great American War at 100
Of course, the hurricanes themselves were not so much the problem for the wavering Mexicans as the impact thereof. The Cozumel Squadron being forced out to sea caused it to be spotted by an American scout off the coast of Cuba as the hurricane subsided and coded telegraphy, which Mexico had not invested particularly in, allowed the weight of the reconstituted I Atlantic Squadron, also bobbing through the storm nearby, to regroup and steam rapidly to catch the Mexican fleet before it was able to reenter port. The Battle of Cozumel on September 11th was thus the second action in the course of about a month, after the Florida Straits, in which Mexico suffered severe and debilitating losses of capital ships, this time including not just cruisers but the sinking of the dreadnought Texcoco, the flagship of the Mexican Navy, the lead vessel of its class of four, and taking with it to the bottom of the Caribbean Prince Salvador de Iturbide y Green, the Emperor's adoptive son and the head of the Armada Imperial on the high seas. Lost with it were the cruisers Miguel Hidalgo and Tuxpan, and the battleship Yucatan and cruiser Principe Luis Maximiliano were able to escape destruction with severe damage and ensconce themselves in port, but were barely seaworthy at that point. It was the worst defeat for the Mexican Navy yet, now running on fumes after having suffered similar damages and losses near Key West in early August.
News of the disaster at Cozumel - Mexico's Hilton Head, as it was described in the increasingly agitated press - struck Maximilian extremely hard, and some observers questioned whether the Emperor would survive the death of his beloved adoptive son. Naval patrols were ordered much closer into shore, reneging on an agreement Mexico had with the Confederacy and thus leaving the Gulf essentially wide open for the interdiction of Confederate shipping as Europeans made it quietly known to the United States Navy's General Board that their expectations for protections on shipping did not, it turned out, extend west of Florida. A planned blockade of the ports of Tampa, Mobile, Galveston and most critically New Orleans was now possible and approved to begin as soon as possible; as a result, with the Confederate Navy at the bottom of the sea and the Mexican Navy seeming well on its way to joining them, Cozumel was the last major naval action of the war.
It also occurred roughly at the same time as twin disasters in the north of Mexico, too, which presaged the collapse just weeks later of the Carbajal government in Mexico City, the putsch of Bernardo Reyes and the subsequent end of the war for Mexico. The rebel army of Pancho Villa, now supported by a vibrant propaganda campaign in the United States and dissident Mexico, personally led his men into Chihuahua and sacked the armory and railroad station there. Casualties were few - Villa was careful not to attack Mexican conscripts when he could avoid it, unlike the Zapatista revolt that now controlled much of Chiapas and Oaxaca and threatened the ability of the Mexican state to dislodge its warlord general Victoriano Huerta from Guatemala City - but the psychological impact of the fall of the main supply node keeping Los Pasos fed was huge. Days later, with Chihuahua now in American hands after Villa left the gates open to John Hines' men and supplies running thin, General Aureliano Blanquet signaled to American forces on the Texas side of the Rio Bravo that they would retreat back into Mexico under a putative ceasefire lasting the next three days. Charles Gerhardt's forces responded by rapidly overwhelming the heavily Texan fighters left in El Paso and at the expiry of the ceasefire overran Blanquet's piecemeal defenses; after nearly a year and a half of fighting, the Battle of Los Pasos was over, and the key rail link between Mexico and the Confederate States (though one used progressively less as the battle raged) was in American hands.
All three losses simultaneously suggested to Mexican leadership the same thing: the war was over. American forces now held not just Hermosillo as they had since the start of the year but Paso del Norte and Chihuahua and could, presumably, strike either southwards or eastwards at leisure. Mexico's ports were blockaded and vulnerable to seizure by the US Marines from sea. The efforts to capture Nicaragua and incorporate it into a client Centroamerica had failed miserably to the tune of thousands of Mexicans dead in the Honduran jungle and with Centro's obliteration, with an errant Mexican general now running Guatemala as his personal fiefdom in practice. It was not clear to anybody in Mexico City, save for a handful of the northern oligarchs whose landholdings were being attacked by Villa nearly weekly, what exactly Mexico was doing still in the war. The Confederacy had started this mess, the Confederacy would have to get itself out. For much of the political establishment, including for the first time Emperor Maximilian and his inner circle of advisors and courtiers, it was time to accept reality - Mexico had lost, but it could still lose with its dignity. The secret efforts at peace feelers from Foreign Minister Pedro Lascurain were now to be encouraged, rather than kept silent..."
- Making Sense of the Senseless: The Great American War at 100
This functionally means that the Battle of Los Pasos in its many forms took more than a year and a half? Not doubting that, but *wow*.
And here come the Zapatistas, as another annoyance...