Separated at Birth: America and Drakia

[Skallagrim]

The fact that Free China is a government that officially makes the personal well-being of the populace a state policy goal also puts them far ahead of several ideological blocks TTL in terms of state-citizen relations.

That's certainly true -- and not in dispute, I hasten to add! I may consider situationism to be a very bad idea, but even if it's self-destructive, its aftermath wouldn't be worse than, say, that of the USSR's collapse. Poverty, corruption, crumbling infrastructure, poorly educated officials and a whole lot of really ugly buildings. Okay. That's crappy. But obviously it's infinitely preferable to what some of the other regimes in this ATL are going to leave behind when they finally die (or are slain)! We can only imagine, with dread, what a post-Drakian society (A post-societist society? A post-society?) is going to look like. And it is clear that anyone sane would choose situationist China over societiest Drakia eleven out of ten times. I would! It's just that I'd much prefer to have better options!

 

[Guaire]

I'm afraid you seem to be missing my point a bit. Do you also think that my arguments become less valid if I like Wagner's music, on the grounds that Hitler also liked it? Or if I drive a Mercedes, on the ground that Hitler drove a Mercedes? That seems silly. Yet you imply that the legitimacy of disapproving certain aesthetics is somehow automatically reduced if the Nazis also disapproved of those. Regardless of whether the motivations behind the dislike are quite different, and regardless of the fact the one may in fact deplore of situationist styles and fascist styles on the same grounds.

Seriously, the reductio ad hitlerum is really off the mark.

I said that your point would be better delivered if you didnt use nazi terminology in the same contexts the nazis did, this ismt difficult to understand at all. Combined with all your argument being just subjective it makes your point look very bad

 

[Born in the USSA]

That's certainly true -- and not in dispute, I hasten to add! I may consider situationism to be a very bad idea, but even if it's self-destructive, its aftermath wouldn't be worse than, say, that of the USSR's collapse. Poverty, corruption, crumbling infrastructure, poorly educated officials and a whole lot of really ugly buildings. Okay. That's crappy. But obviously it's infinitely preferable to what some of the other regimes in this ATL are going to leave behind when they finally die (or are slain)! We can only imagine, with dread, what a post-Drakian society (A post-societist society? A post-society?) is going to look like. And it is clear that anyone sane would choose situationist China over societiest Drakia eleven out of ten times. I would! It's just that I'd much prefer to have better options!

Political and social theory have been diverging TTL for something like 300 years from an OTL baseline, your saving grace in the Separateverse will likely have to be the Fascists.

 

[Shock]

I'm afraid you seem to be missing my point a bit. Do you also think that my arguments become less valid if I like Wagner's music, on the grounds that Hitler also liked it? Or if I drive a Mercedes, on the ground that Hitler drove a Mercedes? That seems silly. Yet you imply that the legitimacy of disapproving certain aesthetics is somehow automatically reduced if the Nazis also disapproved of those. Regardless of whether the motivations behind the dislike are quite different, and regardless of the fact the one may in fact deplore of situationist styles and fascist styles on the same grounds.

Seriously, the reductio ad hitlerum is really off the mark.

Did Hitler drive a Mercedes, or was he always chauffered around?

Also I'm quite fond of Mercedes. I must be a Hitler then.

I said that your point would be better delivered if you didnt use nazi terminology in the same contexts the nazis did, this ismt difficult to understand at all. Combined with all your argument being just subjective it makes your point look very bad

I'm fairly sure degenerate isn't Nazi terminology, as they didn't speak English.

Both sides of this argument look bad, because one is admittedly biased (skallagrim said so themselves) and the other is reducing his entire argument to "Just as bad as the Nazis" because of word choice.

 

[Guaire]

I'm fairly sure degenerate isn't Nazi terminology, as they didn't speak English.

Both sides of this argument look bad, because one is admittedly biased (skallagrim said so themselves) and the other is reducing his entire argument to "Just as bad as the Nazis" because of word choice

I just said that his argument would look stronger if they didnt use that combination of words, I never said he was anything

 

[Skallagrim]

Political and social theory have been diverging TTL for something like 300 years from an OTL baseline, your saving grace in the Separateverse will likely have to be the Fascists.

In light of the side-street the discussion took just now, I'm sure there's some kind of ironic joke to be found in that!

 

[Born in the USSA]

In light of the side-street the discussion took just now, I'm sure there's some kind of ironic joke to be found in that!

Sic sempir societism

 

[Doesntmatter]

while a more Socialist program of voluntary collectivization into autonomous democratic economic collectives was encouraged for farming and light industry with mixed results

I take it this implies that the Situationists haven't actually gone full An-Com, but allow some private industry because freedom?

I imagine given their love of Sun Wukong and general tomfoolery this China would actually love Dragon Ball Z a bunch.

 

[Arthur Marston]

I'm fairly sure degenerate isn't Nazi terminology, as they didn't speak English.

But it is used by people who admire the Nazis.

 

[generalurist]

@Skallagrim what exactly DO you consider 'degenerate art'? I admit that in my experience if it's not being used by the far-right than the word 'degenerate' gets used as a last-ditch justification for why a particular work/genre/fetish/artstyle/etc is a Bad Thing that needs to be forcefully curtailed if someone can't come up with a better excuse.

 

[xsampa]

What is occurring in Afghanistan and Tibet with both of them close to India and Russia?

 

[Burton K Wheeler]

Is that what you see? To me, it seems more like a sign of vast hysteria and madness -- people faced with a monstrously bleak world, retreating into pathetic, childish absurdism where they can pretend the world isn't a nightmare. All the while being so utterly irresponsible and even outright destructive (to any form of social cohesion) that they make the triumph of the tyrannical powers considerably more likely.

Drakia and its horrors is like a pack of wolves encircling your encampment. In England, the regime can be seen as a wolf that has already made it inside. The situationists, conversely, are like dogs driven mad by the fear; barking wildly, pissing and shitting on everything, jumping and running around in a deranged frenzy, and dangerously distracting everyone who should be facing the wolves.

Such dogs must be shot, and quickly. Not because we ought to blame them for their madness, but because their madness is a critical threat to your ability to face the wolves.

You know, there's a word for the political ideology of someone who rants about murdering degenerates within so that your "encampment" can be safe from the enemies who surround it. This is exactly 100% textbook fascism. I'm telling you this not because I believe you're a fascist so much as you should examine the set of assumptions that led you to make an extremely fascist argument.

What's most important here is that you are explicitly advocating murdering "degenerates" whose crime is simply art you don't like, not actual political opponents. It's also clear that instead of advocating this as a course of action the regime should take in the scenario, you are saying it is an absolute good to murder creators of degenerate art when faced with what you consider an existential threat.

You're going to try to head this off by saying that you're only referring to this specific existential threat, but the very fact that you'd suggest murdering people for threatening the the unity of the Volk in any circumstance is way way beyond the pale.

You're kicked for saying governments should murder degenerate artists. Please do not advocate murder when you come back.

 

[Burton K Wheeler]

I came to this thread for a report against the person who pointed out that Skallagrim was making the exact arguments the Nazis made. I'm not sure why that was reported and not the extremely fascist post about murdering degenerates.

 

[Arthur Marston]

I came to this thread for a report against the person who pointed out that Skallagrim was making the exact arguments the Nazis made. I'm not sure why that was reported and not the extremely fascist post about murdering degenerates.

In all fairness, I think the report was made before he made the leap to advocating murder.

 

[Burton K Wheeler]

In all fairness, I think the report was made before he made the leap to advocating murder.

How? The reported post (it's obvious which one I meant) was made after the post I kicked him for.

 

[Shock]

I just said that his argument would look stronger if they didnt use that combination of words, I never said he was anything

This is true. I read the way you were saying his argument would look stronger as implying he was.

Reading more of the argument changes the discourse quite a bit.

This is what I get for reading before coffee.

 

[generalurist]

I came to this thread for a report against the person who pointed out that Skallagrim was making the exact arguments the Nazis made. I'm not sure why that was reported and not the extremely fascist post about murdering degenerates.

I think that's because one could plausibly interpret the "Such dogs must be shot" line as being metaphorical, i.e. "the censorship bureau must act NOW", or such. I did that, perhaps I made a mistake.

 

[Guaire]

I think that's because one could plausibly interpret the "Such dogs must be shot" line as being metaphorical, i.e. "the censorship bureau must act NOW", or such. I did that, perhaps I made a mistake.

Censoring political oponents for their artistics views isnt good either

 

[Burton K Wheeler]

I think that's because one could plausibly interpret the "Such dogs must be shot" line as being metaphorical, i.e. "the censorship bureau must act NOW", or such. I did that, perhaps I made a mistake.

Yeah, it wasn't an explicit or specific call for murder, which is why it was a kick and not a ban, but it was the most fascist thing I've ever seen posted on this board and suggesting that violence is an appropriate way to deal with art you don't like is way out of line.

 

[pattontank12]

So anyone got any theories on what India is like at the moment?