Slan
Banned
Yeah, I'm mostly talking about OTL South Africa, apparently there are pretty significantly white majority areas there.
Separated at Birth: America and Drakia
- Thread starter Ephraim Ben Raphael
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Does the Spanish monarchy serve a purely ceremonial or non official role? I never noticed that it’s a province and not a princely state or client.
Also, how do you make maps like that?
Also, how do you make maps like that?
You think the Drakian's would have a Centurion styled tank or would their armor look more purely Soviet in design.
What strikes me about the map is how even now, with the Dominion victorious over all in the Great Patriotic War and the Final Society clearly just around the corner, so much of the actual Drakian regime, stripped of its mythology as brutal hyper-efficient tyranny, is like... aspirational at best? All this neat little straight lines extending outwards in the Districts makes me think of the Drakian Districts as basically the United States pretending all the frontier territories weren't chalk full of sovereign Amerindian nations that in some cases like Comanchia, actually spent several decades moving back the line of colonial settlement, or that all the previous Hispanic settlers, mixed-race missionaries and fur trappers, migrants straight off the boat, gay cowboys and prostitute town mothers, etc..., etc..., were all good English familial homesteaders and definitely not equally affiliated with Amerindian nations or Mexico or versions of America other then the elite conception of it.
Like there's this weird tendency in the human mind to just convince itself that borders on maps are actually real things, but like the vast majority of "empires" so proclaimed have at least a few porous areas where they only exist as a thin layer of highwaymen atop an almost totally unintegrated polity, neatly drawn maps be damned. I mean does anyone really think that the rugged Italian interior is in any way actually part of the Drakian system instead of merely denuded of most military resistance and occasionally bothered by armed Drakian intruders grabbing some "taxes" or "runaways" before getting the hell out of there? The same goes for the Basque and Catalonians in the Pyrenees, the Amazighs in the Atlas Mountains, the Oromo in the Horn of Africa, the Merina and Bara in Madagascar, etc..., etc... Even within the structures of the Princely States and the Provinces, how often are the Drakia tied down in roving suppression efforts and terrified paranoia that whatever nationality was their victim that day was actually preparing the big one, the Polish Home Guard or Kenyan Land and Freedom Army "Mau Mau" style elaborate shadow governments and popular resistance fronts that all true Drakians fear worse then anything?
I mean don't get me wrong, through their brutal industrialization and enslavement of much of the lowlands Drakia absolutely has irrevocably harmed the vast majority of humans under its domain through ever-present cultural and physical genocides, but it's somewhat heartening to me that you could honestly still find places that have barely even heard of Drakia and who basically ignore the diktats of Aurica with zero repercussions.
Like there's this weird tendency in the human mind to just convince itself that borders on maps are actually real things, but like the vast majority of "empires" so proclaimed have at least a few porous areas where they only exist as a thin layer of highwaymen atop an almost totally unintegrated polity, neatly drawn maps be damned. I mean does anyone really think that the rugged Italian interior is in any way actually part of the Drakian system instead of merely denuded of most military resistance and occasionally bothered by armed Drakian intruders grabbing some "taxes" or "runaways" before getting the hell out of there? The same goes for the Basque and Catalonians in the Pyrenees, the Amazighs in the Atlas Mountains, the Oromo in the Horn of Africa, the Merina and Bara in Madagascar, etc..., etc... Even within the structures of the Princely States and the Provinces, how often are the Drakia tied down in roving suppression efforts and terrified paranoia that whatever nationality was their victim that day was actually preparing the big one, the Polish Home Guard or Kenyan Land and Freedom Army "Mau Mau" style elaborate shadow governments and popular resistance fronts that all true Drakians fear worse then anything?
I mean don't get me wrong, through their brutal industrialization and enslavement of much of the lowlands Drakia absolutely has irrevocably harmed the vast majority of humans under its domain through ever-present cultural and physical genocides, but it's somewhat heartening to me that you could honestly still find places that have barely even heard of Drakia and who basically ignore the diktats of Aurica with zero repercussions.
The problem with the example of the United States is that they did properly integrate those territories, it just took a while.
So long as Drakia can keep outside help out, they'll get around to digesting each holdout eventually.
I've said it before but it would be fascinating to SaB USA getting ISOT to original timeline just for how different yet familiar they would be to OTL.
Ephraim Ben Raphael
Banned
Probably someone in Central America or the Pacific if the USA hasn't lost those territories.
Yeah, Stoker had proposals drawn up for a Chad Sea but they never ended up leaving the drawing board.
Nice maps, Ephraim!
There's a small typo in Portugal's name.
Thank you, and aggh! That's what I get for not checking carefully enough before posting.
Heavy Societist indoctrination. Most of the population are Nationals, those who pass various tests and demonstrate their loyalty to the Empire (generally including taking part in the execution of an enemy of the state- which you'll remember is a standard part of the Agoge graduation) gain citizenship, those who fail to get with the program or demonstrate suspect loyalties end up in Bondage with their children sent off to be raised in Dragon's Nest orphanages. The goal is to forcibly assimilate the Rumanian population (who are regarded as generally being of Superior genetics) into the Noble Race so that Rumania can become a source of loyal white Citizens.
Plenty of natural resource exploitation too, of course.
It is as Alexander suggests- while the American film industry isn't quite as concentrated as OTL, the beating heart of it is in glamorous New Jersey. There are also a couple of secondary locations in Louisiana and (now formerly but it's starting to slowly revive) California.
I recall someone launching a TL with Drakia, the RU, the Societist Combine from LTTW, and I think Eurasia? being ISOTed to the 30s. But it never went anywhere.
They're not gone and they're all still cities- particularly Los Angeles that was far enough south to avoid the worst of the direct bombing- but they suffered badly and they're a lot smaller than they were.
Do it! Dooo it!
The document that I write the rough drafts in currently has 97k~ words. Subtract the 3k words I've written thus far for the next chapter (it's coming, I swear!) and add all of the words for the commentary on the pictures (which are not in said document) and I think the whole thing is at around 100k. SaB is one of the longest things I've written.
Purely ceremonial.
Like what specifically? I just made them in paint.
I've been sticking to Soviet-style weapons because they reflect my idea that Drakian weapons aren't high quality or "better" than those of the rest of the world, but rather an effective combination of cheap, robust, and easy to manufacture and repair. Plus it's easy to find pictures of people with Soviet weapons to illustrate the TL.
Some good points and you're quite right. While there is nowhere that has "barely even heard of Drakia" there are plenty of hinterlands where state control is weak and limited to the kind of roving suppression efforts/grabbing some taxes and runaway before dipping. There are guerillas in these areas (while the Crucible is over Drakia never was and never will be able to totally eliminate resistance), shadow resistance groups, and communities living in much the same way that they always have. Africa is big and wild, and European rule- let alone Imperial rule- is still superficial in many places. The Drakian Empire still isn't even 50 years old yet, even if the legacy of Dominion/British rule can be much older in places.
You know considering the Drakian's love for greco-roman civilization I can definitely see some warlord going full Caesar's Legion. If the Empire ends up getting destroyed in nuclear war...
Anything on my question on the structure of the Drakian Government and whether it is a party-state similar to the USSR or more like Nazi Germany where the party hierarchies overlap with the old political hierarchies, @Ephraim Ben Raphael?
Chapter 16
Totalitarianism is a broad category. It incorporates regimes with left-wing ideologies, regimes with right-wing ideologies, and the governments of purely self-interested despots. The arguments and justifications for totalitarianism range from Stalinism to Juche to Fascism to Japanese Militarism to whatever de Francia was doing with Rousseau’s ideas in Paraguay. But at same time totalitarianism is also very uniform- whatever the ideology or justification behind it, the practices of the totalitarian state almost always follow similar patterns. There is always the Cheka, the State Security Department, the Gestapo, the OVRA, the Special Higher Police , the Pyragues, by whatever name. There is always the Party or the Movement or the Cause whose re-dedication is a constant presence in everyday life. There is always the Man of Steel, the Supreme Leader, the Duke, the Father of the Country with his cult of personality demanding reverence.
And there is always the terror- the ever-pervading fear hanging like fog over the citizens of the nation.
So, it is in OTL, and so it was in the Separate-verse. The economic ideas behind Geoism weren’t inherent to the peasantry and rural interests, but that was the segment of society within which they caught on, and the ideology had been unbreakably married to Agrarian Populism ever since. That wasn’t necessarily a bad thing; the Geoists might be rather socially conservative, they might glorify the farmer as the foundation of society, and they might be distrustful of the modern industrialized city, but their ideas were more progressive than conservative and the rural concerns that they advocated for were generally valid concerns. William Jennings Bryan would have found himself largely on the same page with them, as would Milo Reno. But the extremist flavors of Geoism- the Pobladistos of Spain and the Rodinaviks of Russia- were a very different animal indeed. They sought nothing less than the total dismantlement of the old order and the ushering in of an entirely new society, and were prepared to pave the road to their utopia with the bodies of their foes. In both countries there were mass purges of the nobility and suspect members of the intelligentsia, the hammer falling hardest on the despised “urban elites”. In both countries there was state religion and ultimately the suppression of other faiths (the Pobladistos started with Sedevacantism and eventually picked their own Anti-Pope). Nominal tolerance of other cultures and ethnicities proved a thin shield for minorities, be they Kazakhs or Catalans. The Spanish Poblado Republic was less extreme than Russia, it grudgingly maintained a degree of industrial manufacturing even if it placed industrial workers on the very bottom of its social ladder and regarded them as potential Socialist or Utopian enemies of the people.
Pobladistos storming a Royalist position in the Spanish Revolution.
Meanwhile the “Rodina Zemlya” (Homeland Earth) emerged from the Second Russian Civil War victorious over its Socialist, Utopian, Liberal, and Anarchist enemies under the tight fist of Rudnikov Semyon Danilovich. Rudinkov was a fanatic who proclaimed his country the beginning of a world government that would in time expand to absorb the entire globe. His efforts to create a purified agrarian Geoist republic included the large-scale forced relocation of the urban masses to the countryside, where they were “resettled” in new villages- many created simply by picking spots on the map and putting a village there. Millions died in the “Re-Settlement” (Peremesheniye) and the starvation that accompanied it, millions more perished in forced labor and the massacres of enemies of the people. In keeping with Rodinist doctrine that manufacturing did not produce value, but merely spent resources to rework materials produced by farmers, miners, and laborers, the RZ attempted to dismantle its national industry almost totally, preserving only a small amount of low-level cottage industry and what was needed to maintain its armed forces.
By the time Rudnikov was assassinated in 1926 and replaced by saner figures he had done irreparable damage to Russia’s industrial base and infrastructure and was responsible for the death of tens of millions.
But of course, Radical Geoism (not to be confused with the moderate form of the movement) was not the only totalitarian ideology to rise to power in the aftermath of the World War. Societism was just as brutal, and no less bloody.
According to the Drakian historians of the 1950s the World War and the Anglo-Drakian War were the start of the Late Wars of Drakian Expansion, an ill-defined era whose end depended on the opinion of the historian in question. The period after the end of the Anglo-Drakian War they dubbed “the Crucible” although the Drakians actually living in that time knew it as “the Crisis”. The Dominion of Drakia (for it was still officially a dominion) had expanded far too rapidly, adding swathes of additional territory at a time when it had just been cut off from the invaluable support of Great Britain and every other part of the British Empire that wasn’t in Africa. Not only was Drakia economically severed from markets for its raw materials, not only had it lost the backing of the Royal Navy, but it was diplomatically isolated as well. By 1917 all of Drakia’s land neighbors with the exception of Russia were members of the American-led Grand Alliance and actively hostile to the Country of the Dragon. Arms, ammunition, money, and even military advisors and agents of the Black Chamber flowed across these borders into the Drakian Near East, or were smuggled ashore into West and North Africa as part of a vast project by the United States to undermine its estranged younger brother. Native rebellions, uprisings, terrorism, and sabotage were chronic during the Crucible, as long-exploited subject peoples struck back against an overlord weakened and bleeding from a thousand cuts.
It is telling that the demands of the Crucible in terms of funds, resources, and lives on Drakia was proportionally almost twice as high as similar costs for the German Confederation during the World War when the Germans were fighting on three fronts simultaneously against heavily industrialized and modern enemies.
Rebels dig in against a Drakian assault in the mountains of Algeria.
The Drakians struggled desperately to effectively project power away from their heartland in Southern and Eastern Africa into the newly integrated Western and Northern parts of the continent, to say nothing of the challenges of the Near East. The vestigial Drakian Navy was expanded drastically- partly in the form of gunboats to support land operations along the coasts and up major rivers, but mostly in the form of large numbers of basic, low-cost, low-to-moderate quality naval cargo ships. They would have been easily swept from the sea by any foe with a decent naval arm, but as long as the armistice with America held the Drakian Navy was able to significantly reduce the logistic strain of land operations elsewhere. The Drakian Army initially abandoned control of large parts of the African interior in favor of defending the coasts, major cities, strategically important roads, railways, rivers, and sources of vital raw materials. From there they gradually pushed back, using heavy artillery, air power, and an arsenal of chemical and incendiary weapons that by 1919 included G-series nerve agents plus their old standby of white phosphorus.
This is not to imply that the Crucible was easy, or straightforward, or that Drakia’s victory wasn’t in question until the very end. Ultimately the deciding factor was the existence of a pro-Drakian Native (and occasionally non-Native but also non-Drakia) minority that actively supported the regime.
The military government that took power following Premier McRae’s resignation in 1915 made a series of compromises that would have been politically impossible in a less desperate situation, conceding ideological purity in the name of survival. Victory meant numbers, and numbers meant manpower, and immigration to Drakia didn’t resume in any real numbers until the situation had stabilized in the early 20’s and it was clear their country wasn’t going to collapse in the near future. So General Saxon did what he could. Mixed-race persons who were 25% or less African or Asian were universally declared “white” and offered citizenship, as were all of the former citizens of the other African dominions, regardless of race (none of the dominions in question had extended citizenship universally to their Native inhabitants, but several had on a case-to-case basis). Citizenship was extended to the British, German, and Russian colonists of the Holy Land, Syria, and Iraq, and to the Spanish colonists and refugees in Morocco. The inhabitants of Egypt were declared to be part of the “Misri” martial race descended from the ancient Egyptians and separate from their Arab neighbors, and they proved to be essential allies in the fight to hold North Africa (or at least the portion of the Egyptian population convinced to continue to tolerate Drakian rule provided an essential non-rebellious base of operation there). The Zionist community in the Holy Land had co-operated with British and German authorities against the Arab Revolt during the World War, after Drakia took control of the area General Saxon was desperate enough for allies that he offered to allow a Jewish princely state in the OTL Israeli Coastal Plain and to make any Sephardic or Mizrahi Jews living within its borders Honorary Whites (most of the Ashkenazim had received citizenship as former British, Russian, or German citizens, other types of Jews hadn’t). Despite the fact that the Drakian government had actively suppressed Zionism among the Drakian Jewish community the deal went ahead, causing a split in the global Zionist movement between those who considered working with Drakia an acceptable evil to protect the Jewish community in Eretz Yisroel from the Arabs, and save Near Eastern Jews from Drakian Bondage, and those who rejected any such co-operation and turned their focus to sponsoring Jewish agricultural colonies in Patagonia and OTL Western Canada.
Drakia fostered nationalist movement among certain Near Eastern and North African ethnicities - the Jews, the Druze, the Egyptians, the Assyrian Christians, the Yezidis, and others, in regions where Arab Muslims had long been dominant. General Saxon’s reasoning was that while such groups might never get full independence under Drakian rule, they would receive autonomy and privileged treatment that they would never get if the rebels won.
Any negative repercussions to this strategy, the general reasoned, could be dealt with if the dominion survived. At the time it still seemed likely that they would lose the Near East at the very least- who cared what promises the government in Aurica made?
Zionist militiamen during the Crucible. Of course there is no possible way that giving a Geoist- and Socialist-influenced movement whose goal is total sovereignty over its Holy Land a non-sovereign pseudo-state that doesn't control any of its major holy sites could possibly backfire for Drakia. Surely Jewish nationalists will be loyal to a totalitarian Christian dictatorship that holds some of their coreligionists as de facto slaves and temporarily held an even larger number of their coreligionists who are now freed and possibly even serving in the army of said pseudo-state.
That’s not to say that simply being declared an Honorary White or even a White Citizen automatically turned one into a loyal subject of the Country of the Dragon. Even among the ranks of favored castes from before the World War you had Honorary Whites- and a few Whites believe it or not- who supported, participated in, and on occasion led rebel elements. There were Auxiliary units that mutinied wholesale and Native Princes who led their princely states to seek true independence. But when the rebels couldn’t get their hands on their Drakian oppressors they settled for targeting their Native collaborators, and most rebel armies didn’t distinguish between different members of the martial races or anyone who had received special treatment while they groaned under the abuse of colonial misrule.
The fear of being massacred by the anti-government rebels caused many who might have wavered to remain loyal to the state, and drove minority groups that might have otherwise sided with the rebels (the Arab Christians, the Sephardim, etc.) to co-operate with Drakia.
This, along with the inability of many rebel groups to work effectively with each other, proved key to the victory of the Noble Race.
As the tide turned and the army pushed back into regions it had previously abandoned, Drakia inflicted an inhuman punishment on those who had defied its rule. Villages and towns were wiped out with gas and phosphorus, populations were removed to become Bonded Labor in a content-spanning network of forced labor camps, tribes that surrendered were spared total annihilation but forced to relocate far from their original homelands. Millions died in the massacres and in the camps. Millions more were sent fleeing abroad as refugees. To call the events of the Crucible a genocide would be in no way an exaggerated, there were entire cultures that were wiped out save for a few individuals and it is estimated that more than 15,000,000~ African and Middle Eastern civilians died in the fighting and its aftermath (to put that in perspective 17-22,000,000 Chinese civilians died in the Second Sino-Japanese War in OTL). Roughly a 800,000 White Drakians- 8%~ of their total population (in OTL Germany lost about 4% of its population in World War I)- died along with their enemies, so did 5,000,000 Native Auxiliaries and soldiers in the armies of the princely states.
Captured civilians from a rebel tribe in West Africa in a forced labor camp.
Resistance to Drakian rule never truly ended in either Africa or the Middle East, but by 1918 the rebels had ceased to be an existential threat and by 1920 they were reduced to a collection of regional insurgencies of diminishing intensity as American aid dried up and the United States redirected its resources elsewhere. Immigration to Drakia began to pick up from the truly desperate with nowhere else to go- the former white settler populations of India and the East Indies and groups that had been favored under British colonial rule such as the Punjabis, Indian Muslims, and Chinese Indonesians, fleeing putative treatment by India and Indonesia. They were soon joined by Russians desperate to escape Rudinkov and Basques and Catalans attempting to get out of Spain. Most such immigrants were either accepted as Citizens or as Honorary Whites by a government eager for more loyal inhabitants (most were loyal, if simply out of gratitude for a safe place to live). America was going through one of its nativist phases, the British economy had imploded, and there were few other options for a refugee. But this wave of immigration didn’t really occur until the 1920s proper, in 1920 itself there were 89 million people in the Dominion of Drakia. Brutal and exploitative rule at the hands of Drakia and Britain slowed African population growth from OTL even before the mass deaths of the Cruicible and other wars are taken into account- in OTL there were 120 million~ people in Africa alone in 1920 without considering Mandatory Palestine, Jordan, Syria, Iraq, and Yemen. Of those 89 million persons some 9.1 million were White Citizens- slightly larger than the population of OTL Canada at the same time- a number that included a million-odd mixed-race persons who had enough European blood to receive full citizenship from the military government, and even a handful of non-Whites who had held citizenship in the other African dominions before they were annexed. Around 21 million more were Honorary Whites, and an additional 9 million were Nationals- the overwhelming majority of whom could afford to pay the Hut Tax with money and worked in White-owned business concerns. The remaining 50 million inhabitants of Drakia were classed as Bondsmen of one kind or another.
Drakian society was profoundly affected by the Crucible; it became vastly more militarized, more paranoid (Drakians were always conscious of America’s hand assisting the rebels), and more nationalistic. It was also more egalitarian than it had been, opening up avenues for women that had been previously closed (including combat positions in the military, although women were mostly removed from those once things calmed down), and much more accepting of Honorary Whites who had achieved positions of power and influence that they had previously never possessed. The Church of Christ the Savior grew considerably, although the Sedevacantist Catholics and the Drakian Church remain major cultural fixtures.
While General Saxon’s junta had successfully brought the country through the Crucible, the heavy casualties taken by White Drakians were deeply unpopular, and the country’s economy was barely functioning in the absence of foreign trading partners and with most industrial production (expanded massively through the use of additional forced labor) dedicated to military needs. This was to say nothing of the unhappiness of a civilian population that had been on a total war footing since 1907. In response to mounting pressure not just from the Drakian public but from within the military command structure itself, Saxon agreed to step down and allow new elections.
General Saxon, military dictator of Drakia from 1915 to 1920, aka "The Black Knight"
The 1920 Drakian National Elections were the final gasp of the country’s increasingly moribund Westminster democracy. They saw what remained of the establishment and the old Drakian aristocracy thoroughly defeated and witnessed the victory of the Societists under the leadership of Lindsey Stoker. The Societists stood for a meritocracy that favored Drakians not from the once-dominant aristocratic families. They stood for an acceptance of Honorary Whites not as equals, but as junior partners instead of mere servants in the social order, part of the “Aspirant Race” of Naldorssen. They stood for a social safety net for veterans, particularly injured veterans, and for Citizens in general. They also stood for a hierarchical society, an explicit rejection of the practice of democracy and the concepts of equality, natural rights, and consent of the governed. They wanted Eugenic extremism, state-enforced religion, and the de facto chattel slavery of the Bonded Labor System. There would be no more open elections under Societism, just one-party rule under a Premier and a Cabinet seeking to guide the evolution of the population towards the eventual “closure of humanity” and the creation of the Final Society. The new Bureau of Social Defense took on the responsibility of suppressing dissent and political opposition, and the regime wasted no time in extending its ideology from the highest echelons of the state to the bedrooms of its subjects.
One of Stoker’s first acts once in power was to bring to an end the charade that Drakia was somehow still a British dominion. Gone was the Red Ensign- in its place flew the Dragon Banner with its three white stars representing the either the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, or the Servitor, Aspirant, and Custodian races of humanity. It was inconceivable that Drakia should cease to be a monarchy, but who was to be her king? Various options were considered (including the exiled King of Spain and members of various other noble houses who could claim royal blood), but the decision of the dictator was as surprising as it was inevitable. Only one person was worthy of being the ruler of the Noble Race, and that was the Prince of Peace himself. The constitution of the new government claimed Jesus Christ as its official head of state, to the near-universal condemnation of the rest of Christendom and the misgivings of more than a few Drakians themselves.
On November 1, 1920, All-Saints Day, the Dominion of Drakia came to an end, and the Empire of Drakia proclaimed itself to the world.
The flag of the Empire of Drakia.
That is an awesome flag
Thoroughly enjoying this. While I enjoyed Stirlings work decades ago when I read it, it always had a lot of handwavium to it. Nice job putting together a more coherent version
For some reason I can see Japan resembling its Ghost in the Shell self. Hopefully India doesn't suffer surprise nuclear attack by the Dragon Spawn.
My favorite book of his actually, although still 'super race' gets annoying but at least these guys make sense kind of.ephraim-ben-raphael any chance you've ever read "The Chosen" novel by David Drake and SM Stirling? Since the main antagonists of the books were expies of the Draka themselves with Drake deciding to give them a realistic approach. I'm mainly asking since they had some stuff that would fit rather well with the nation of the Dragon.
Who knows maybe this series will eventually go down the CoDominion and the General series route in the far future.
Ok caught up at last
even without nuclear weapons the very real possibility of the Final War bringing Civilization to an horrible end now exists. Nice job.
Eventually somebody is going to figure out that Sun Bombs are possible
Then ouch....
Surprised a Goddard or Dornberger or Von Braun or for that matter a Tsiolovsky hasn't shown up yet. Surely there are rockets for ground attack and the usefulness of them against big strategic bombers should be reasonably apparent.
even without nuclear weapons the very real possibility of the Final War bringing Civilization to an horrible end now exists. Nice job.
Eventually somebody is going to figure out that Sun Bombs are possible
Then ouch....
Surprised a Goddard or Dornberger or Von Braun or for that matter a Tsiolovsky hasn't shown up yet. Surely there are rockets for ground attack and the usefulness of them against big strategic bombers should be reasonably apparent.
Some more images of ITTL 80's America...
You know I wonder if the by Seadrome envisioned by Edward Robert Armstrong was ever constructed here?
Yeah the book is definitely a great source for the "realistic draka" department. Especially considering they have something similar to the Agoge program.
The countdown to doomsday has begun.
Yeah you'd think we'd see at least a few prototype rockets showing up during the later half of the wars.
You know I wonder if the by Seadrome envisioned by Edward Robert Armstrong was ever constructed here?
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