This is a fun TLOh i know, I'm just being cheeky
Separated at Birth: America and Drakia
- Thread starter Ephraim Ben Raphael
- Start date
@Ephraim Ben Raphael another excellent update about the ATL history of Japan and East Asia. The relationship between Japan and America in this timeline is the ultimate example the adage that nations have no friends only interests. The development of Japanese Pan-Asianism while influenced by New York, seems to be a natural offshoot of Japanese exceptionalism. While not as catastrophically horrible as OTL Japanese imperialism attitudes Tokyo/Kyotos preference for direct integration and rule is going to put a lot of smaller nations at risk.
Future conflict between the US and Japan if it does boil over seem to put South East Asia and South Asia at risk. I do find it funny that the radicals in the Philippines that favor Japanese imperialism over American imperialism dont seem to realize that they'll likely lose more independence if Tokyo gains control of the Pearl of the East.
Future conflict between the US and Japan if it does boil over seem to put South East Asia and South Asia at risk. I do find it funny that the radicals in the Philippines that favor Japanese imperialism over American imperialism dont seem to realize that they'll likely lose more independence if Tokyo gains control of the Pearl of the East.
I can imagine Drakia embracing submarines and long range naval attack aircraft in a Soviet Navy style means to counter the US and Japanese navies
Korea avoids the fate of the dismantling it suffered under OTL Japan, but ultimately I think that's more to the health of Japan's fledgling democracy then it's colonial rule (if nothing else, when Japanese cartels and settlers run out of economic stimulus rebuilding things destroyed by the Russians they won't exactly start freezing all the land-transfers and capitalization that made them so wealthy).
There's an interesting idea that fascist movements are aided by the Ivy League schooling they get in the imperialist colonies, being allowed to radicalize others and freely hone the political terror and repression they later turn inwards against the internal "enemies" of the metropole. The Freikorps, the Spanish Army of Africa, the Japanese Kwantung and Korean Armies, etc...
With this open sandbox being not so open it's highly likely that the fascist movements with this Japan would be correspondingly weakened and less organized. Imperial politics are never not going to be dirty as shit, but in this universe the out-in-out "assassinate everyone who disagrees" fuckery would be comparatively amateur hour nonsense and not be able to enforce hegemonic dominion over the country.
There's an interesting idea that fascist movements are aided by the Ivy League schooling they get in the imperialist colonies, being allowed to radicalize others and freely hone the political terror and repression they later turn inwards against the internal "enemies" of the metropole. The Freikorps, the Spanish Army of Africa, the Japanese Kwantung and Korean Armies, etc...
With this open sandbox being not so open it's highly likely that the fascist movements with this Japan would be correspondingly weakened and less organized. Imperial politics are never not going to be dirty as shit, but in this universe the out-in-out "assassinate everyone who disagrees" fuckery would be comparatively amateur hour nonsense and not be able to enforce hegemonic dominion over the country.
I wonder how Philippines and Indonesia — true blue Christians and Muslims, would react to Japan’s anti-Abrahamicism. I can see the Philippines trying to revive their lost culture through some buttcatcher-not-chair language purification, fetishisation of Moors, Igorots, Lumads, and other indigenous peoples, furious and unproductive debates and unnecessary revisions on the national language, and even French-style anti-clericalism (or more so), but I suppose Indonesia will more or less say pfffft, muh best Anglo-Saxon orthography.
Please have China love Japan so that we have Eastasia as a hegemon of the east, though.
Please have China love Japan so that we have Eastasia as a hegemon of the east, though.
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Well, Indonesia's national identity might emphasise, under Japanese influence, the Hindu-Buddhist kingdoms. Said Japanese anti-Abrahamic ideology could also manifest in a revival of Hinduism in Indonesia (even in the form the Balinese practice IOTL as opposed to the Hinduism of the Subcontinent).
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*bewildered in Mullah*
Yeah, I don’t wonder much how that will fare with a majority population of devout Muslims. I am quite confident that Indonesian Fascism involves a certain degree of Islamism, as the Malaysian peninsula, much of Coastal Borneo, Java and Sumatra had Muslim majorities. They can be cobelligerents, as they’re all pissed off the US, especially its Navy, but any suggestions of Imperial Democracy or radical Japanese ambassadors will not make them any common grounds, more so when their change in clientage attacks their very faith itself. It’s bad enough with the Anglo-Saxons proselytising Christianity, adding Buddhist and Hindu revivalists into the mix may be the spark to that powder keg.
There may be a need to write some passages fleshing out Philippine, Indonesian, and perhaps Indian Fascism in the next update.
I think the funniest thing about the setting right now is that the Draka probably see themselves as America's greatest enemy and rival. The Dragon and Eagle soaring in the heaven fighting for global supremacy real great national mythology to enflate their ego.
When in truth the Draka are realistically incapable of contesting the Western Hemisphere.
Itd be funny if they land a massive invasion force in South America and said force ends up getting cut off by the USN. Itd mirror what happened to the German force in North Africa otl, but with the Snake in a much worse position. Knowing how much they believe in themselves the bastards are liable to try and cut through the Amazon to reach Panama.
The sole power capable of challenging the USN is Japan with the IJN. The IJN could probably even threaten Hawaii in this timeline.
When in truth the Draka are realistically incapable of contesting the Western Hemisphere.
Itd be funny if they land a massive invasion force in South America and said force ends up getting cut off by the USN. Itd mirror what happened to the German force in North Africa otl, but with the Snake in a much worse position. Knowing how much they believe in themselves the bastards are liable to try and cut through the Amazon to reach Panama.
The sole power capable of challenging the USN is Japan with the IJN. The IJN could probably even threaten Hawaii in this timeline.
I dont mean the IJN could ever really defeat the whole USN, just constest the Pacific theater enough to cut off the Ducklings. I think this ATLs American East Asiaitic Fleet would be able to fight the whole IJN nevermind the other USN fleets. It's more that the ATL US has found itself really spread out with a lot of future theatres to defend in the even of a global war.
I can see it now, the United States being so invested in its militarized navy and forward position semi-ruling the Phillipines and the Insular Republic would no longer be able to fall back the thousands of miles of ocean back to their center of power in a Pacific War. And likewise the shifting of Japan in New York's strategic thought from a big Duckling to a regional rival is still occuring and the explicitly demobilizing America has not had the time or the energy to devote themselves to a full study from the ground up of their goals and positions in the Pacific and how they should achieve the one with the other. Either America's war-planning would still be contending with how to win a Mahan-estic Decisive Battle in the sea of Japan or with imagining the Philippine Republic as an impregnable fortress or transitioning back and forth between them. Combined with a panic stirred up in South America all out of proportion to the Drakian presence and the demands of the blockade against Drakia itself, then America would leave itself open to one nasty gut punch.
If the United States of Indonesia and the Dominions of Australia and New Zealand found their own interests secured by playing between the American Empire and the Japanese, then America might not even get the chance to pay Japan back for a good long while.
If the United States of Indonesia and the Dominions of Australia and New Zealand found their own interests secured by playing between the American Empire and the Japanese, then America might not even get the chance to pay Japan back for a good long while.
I took some of your suggestions. I can't remember if Drakia has any kind of navy, but it can still have a nice blue and white uniform for however many members it has.
@Ephraim Ben Raphael I understand if these can't be canon, I don't even know where to find good historical photos without these uniforms, but it's fun to imagine what they would look like anyway.
The battle uniform kinda looks like Wehrmacht's anyways.
I'm sure the naval uniforms can be similar enough in some other Anime...
So I've had a few thoughts about geoism and the reactionary backlash in Europe. I was thinking that an analogue to the Comintern TTL could be the IU (the abbreviation of the International Union of Land Value Taxation), a Georgist group OTL that promotes his ideas internationally. I think a good symbol for geoism could be a plow on a green flag, because it would allow for the repurposing of the Irish Starry Plough flag.
Meanwhile, as for the reactionary backlash I'm still interested in some sort of neocameralism because obscure economic/political irony is just the best, but I've been thinking that no ideology TTL is focused on labor and that offers up an opportunity. Fascism is a class-collaborationist civic nationalism, Societism is pretty firmly aristocratic and Geoism is firmly in favor of land over labor.
An avenue that could be worth a look is Yellow Socialism, a form of anti-Marxist socialism in which unions operated within a capitalist structure alongside business groups. It was a proto-fascist corporatist current in the lead up to World War I. I think there's a post about it in the "Could Have Been" ideologies thread. As a reaction to a global Green Panic you'd end up with a situation where militant patriotic unions could create some sort of Nationalist International. This would also create a fun little set of contrasting color pairs (Blue Fascism/Red Societism and Green Geoism/Yellow Socialism), which would make identifying factions on the maps easier during wars and such if nothing else.
Meanwhile, as for the reactionary backlash I'm still interested in some sort of neocameralism because obscure economic/political irony is just the best, but I've been thinking that no ideology TTL is focused on labor and that offers up an opportunity. Fascism is a class-collaborationist civic nationalism, Societism is pretty firmly aristocratic and Geoism is firmly in favor of land over labor.
An avenue that could be worth a look is Yellow Socialism, a form of anti-Marxist socialism in which unions operated within a capitalist structure alongside business groups. It was a proto-fascist corporatist current in the lead up to World War I. I think there's a post about it in the "Could Have Been" ideologies thread. As a reaction to a global Green Panic you'd end up with a situation where militant patriotic unions could create some sort of Nationalist International. This would also create a fun little set of contrasting color pairs (Blue Fascism/Red Societism and Green Geoism/Yellow Socialism), which would make identifying factions on the maps easier during wars and such if nothing else.
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Also was there a chapter on the origins of geoism I can't remember for some reason or do they just burst onto the international stage at the start of the Panic? If the former could we see an interlude chapter about Henry George?
Surely not I.
Quite so! Like the United States, TTL's Japan sucks in a variety of definable ways, but remains quantifiably better.
Thank you! Kyoto (Tokyo is not the capital and remains known as "Edo" TTL) is arguably even more expansionist than OTL since it wants to unify all of Asia under a single government instead of as a bloc of nominally independent GEACPS allies. And yeah, the Filipino radicals don't entirely understand what Japanese liberation would mean- they're just looking for a foreign friend to help them kick their current rulers out.
Those are some very good observations! Less brutality in the colonies has the result of mediating the radicalization of the military and the political extremists. Of course the military is still hugely influential and politically quite powerful, and the colonies aren't totally free...
Asian Muslims aren't really supporting Pan-Asianism at all- whether in Indonesia or India- as it's mostly a Buddhist/Confucian deal with some token Hindu participation (barely). The branch of Pan-Asianism in the Philippines is pretty moderate and doesn't have a problem with Abrahamic religions.
Oh, of course! They are lovely uniforms and by all means imagine more.
That is an excellent idea for a flag.
Meanwhile, as for the reactionary backlash I'm still interested in some sort of neocameralism because obscure economic/political irony is just the best, but I've been thinking that no ideology TTL is focused on labor and that offers up an opportunity. Fascism is a class-collaborationist civic nationalism, Societism is pretty firmly aristocratic and Geoism is firmly in favor of land over labor.
An avenue that could be worth a look is Yellow Socialism, a form of anti-Marxist socialism in which unions operated within a capitalist structure alongside business groups. It was a proto-fascist corporatist current in the lead up to World War I. I think there's a post about it in the "Could Have Been" ideologies thread. As a reaction to a global Green Panic you'd end up with a situation where militant patriotic unions could create some sort of Nationalist International. This would also create a fun little set of contrasting color pairs (Blue Fascism/Red Societism and Green Geoism/Yellow Socialism), which would make identifying factions on the maps easier during wars and such if nothing else.
You're forgetting about TTL's Socialism which is basically OTL Socialism, and Utopianism with is TTL's version of Communism. There's also Christian Populism, TTL's Christian Democracy, and couple of other conservative offshoots of the old Red Movement.
That's true, l meant more along the lines of "major international power blocs", I should have been more clear.
Chapter 12 of the TL. Henry George didn't exist ITTL, but there were other thinkers who developed largely the same ideology that he did.
Fair enough, Socialism and Utopianism don't have international power blocs any more than Anarchism did OTL.