No nuclear power. So the big capital ships are probably smaller and less self-sufficient than OTL, not bigger.

Guided shells probably mean that battleships persist as a surface combatant, but I'd still expect aircraft carriers to dominate strategy in a missile-free environment.

Drakia's navy...The naval and industrial disadvantage is closer to Cold War USSR than IJN but it's still not great and there's a series of long coastlines to protect. India and France might possibly be threatened by sea in the early stages, but projecting naval power all the way to the Americas is right out.

Honestly doubt it, the advantages of going for bigger CVs with their larger payloads and air wings are simply too good to pass up, the AfD probably has a dozen or more Kitty Hawk/Forrestal equivalents, plus whatever smaller CVs France, Britain, etc pack along.

I also doubt Battleships surviving as anything other than prestige tools, to big, and too expensive for what's basically a glorified monitor when you're packing around all-weather aircraft, especially when for every battleship you build you could probably afford two or three Cruisers with autoloading 8" guns

As for the Drakian Navy, between the US and India alone they'll be outgunned and outnumbered by a ludicrous margin, there only saving grace being the fact that they control both entrances to the Mediterranean.

Actually, speaking of Navies, what happened to the USN-USCG divide? Erased entirely?
 
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I imagine most Drakian war preparations (at least under Kobold's rule) would be along the lines of keeping the Militarists busy doing something while Ulysses looks towards the wider picture of regenerating the Drakian Empire to its pre-Great Wars fitness and incorporating the new orbital front. So lots of stuff that will physically and mentally exhaust the not!Hitler Youth and get them out of the capital a couple months directing the Auxiliaries, Agoge cadets, and Home Defense militias in various arrangements in ditch-digging. I'm imagining a lot of cheap and relatively easy to make static defenses only partially relevant for the apocalyptic Last War- stuff like North Korea's side of the DMZ or the meme that was Hoxhaist Albania's bunker-philia, lots of barbed wire and punji pits and minefields and lots of little blockhouses and dugouts protecting a massive artillery park of everything from vintage Great Wars or even Last Crusade era super-guns to little homemade trench mortars made by patriotic Drakensis students and Bonded workers out of spare material.
 
to keep with tradition, i propose that the final war now starts with an Arabian rebellion after Drakia commits a heresy against Islam or something, preferably one that involves a piece of furniture.
 
to keep with tradition, i propose that the final war now starts with an Arabian rebellion after Drakia commits a heresy against Islam or something, preferably one that involves a piece of furniture.

Alight Place your bets. Dresser? Night Stand? DO I HEAR A HOLY WAR STARTED BY A BED FRAME?!?!
 
"accidentally shot himself" rrrrrrrrrright

The lack of quotation marks around accidentally makes me think this was a legitimate accident. Which is one of the more darkly hilarious things in this TL

Betting that while a legitimate accident, it leads to a Militarist becoming the leader of Drakia.

Believe it or not, but it was a genuine accident. He was a hunting enthusiast, and it can be a dangerous sport.

I'm sure the next leader of the Drakia will be the man that country needs: a hard man making the hardest choices while diamond hard!

:p

I'm absolutely sure you're right, too. This entire thing kicked off over a chair (or was it a ladder?) in the wrong place. An actual accidental death fits perfectly and hilariously.

I've really enjoyed this timeline, and the story that EBR has told here. You might as well call it "Because Reality Ensues: Why Being a Slave-Owning Genocidal Racist Fascist Is Not Only Wrong But A Really Really Bad Idea" but that wouldn't fit on the TV Tropes page very well, I suppose. Again and again we've watched how the Drakians have epically sabotaged themselves, and it's just been a joy, really it has. I hope you don't mind if I make a confession? The Draka Saga is about the only one of SM Stirling's works that I haven't read, because the whole thing just seemed far too depressing. The bad guys win. Frankly I'm not sure I'm ever going to read it, especially now that I've read such an epic deconstruction. It just wouldn't seem ...realistic... enough, if that's the word I want.
I'm not sure how this is going to end. But I think that EBR has shown us one thing, at least: whether it's Stirling's Draka or his own Drakians, pursuit of power over others (whether it's Naldorssen's Purpose of Power or the Custodial Master Race) is really just an epically bad idea, doomed to failure.

Thank you! One of my pet peeves has long been dystopic empires in fiction whose evil policies never have any of the real-world negative consequences that hit authoritarian governments in reality. I don't mean that aren't shown causing people to suffer, I mean the pragmatic downsides to the Yukon Confederacy remaining in a constant state of cultural and technological stagnation, or Oceania not keeping accurate records of reality, or the Republican Union pushing cocaine on kids. Things that will make your government less effective at governing regardless of morality.

I also really don't like the idea of "a boot stamping on the human face forever". If we learn one thing from history, it's that all empires fall eventually and nothing lasts forever. I reject the idea of a Final Society- whether of a Draka slavocracy or a Communist utopia or Fukuyama's market liberal End of History consensus- in principle because such a thing is factually impossible. Sooner or later the Golden Age will end, or Dark Age will end, and humanity will move forward to the next stage of history.

I can't tell you exactly how this will end, but when it does it won't be because the planet is under the permanent rule of a brutal world state.

And so we see the drawbacks of trying to fight the world single-handedly as a continent-sized Apartheid South Africa/North Korea hybrid. Their few allies will help, but unless they pull some sort of wunderwaffle out of their ass they're gonna lose the final war hard.

Was that a deliberate typo or an accident? Either way I love it.:biggrin:

BTW how much success have the two blocks had in creating orbital weaponry? Since getting kinetic kill vehicles was the motivation behind the space race after all.

Considerable success.

I feel dumb, but I do not know where this went. Unless it's foreshadowing China getting nukes and/or ballistic missiles?

You did in fact know where they went.;)

Holy shit, this is a common market that basically spans three quarters of the world. This is BIG and I wonder how much domestic economic strife it will cause. More than a mere Alliance, I could see this becoming something of a mega-EU if not outright world government.

It already functions as sort of a multi-continental EU+NATO, but yeah it is massive.

How does France get to be a Big? Haven't they lost all their colonies and been devastated by war or something?

They still have most of their overseas departments, and they were the least devastated part of Europe after the Great Wars by virtue of not doing any fighting in or around their metropole until the very end. They're the most powerful country in Europe and the former Pan-Europeans follow their lead.

Oh man, that's a major aquisition for the pact of blood, gives them a great ability to menace East Asia. Japan's navy probably survived their strife, but given they lost their empire it must have been hard to keep modern. What is the state of the IJN? Speaking of that, what's naval tech like without guided missiles? Does Drakia have a surface fleet worth speaking of? (I half-expect them to have built some superbattleships as prestige projects.)

No superbattleships- big capital ships became obsolete for the same reasons that they did OTL. Giant carriers though, and Drakia built up a substantial surface fleet.

Sounds interesting. I do hope the state of the environment will get some attention later in this TL. Perhaps after the Final War, as a general update on how badly messed up the biosphere is after the planet faced two centuries of Drakia existing?

That's the plan. Whoever wins the Final War is going to have to content with all of that stuff.

Was some random piece of furniture involved in THIS war starting too? Ehehe, it's time to end this rodeo!

Give me a chance, we haven't reached the war yet!:cool:

So first of all, I just love that it's Situationist China that pushes for National Parks. Teddy Roosevelt would be proud.

Oh, National Parks were already a thing in the USA and elsewhere. Adding a bunch is just a big new thing in China.

Secondly, learning about musical roads was fucking awesome. I think I like Free China even more!

Musical roads are one of those super cool OTL things that really should be more common than they are. *nods*

If I ever become a dictator I'm going to build a bunch of musical roads.

Honestly, since there is supposed to be a failure state for the AfD if the dice betray them, I bet that domestic strife is going to be a big part in bringing them down if we end up down that path.

I can't give any details, but there is a failure state for the AfD.

Am I the only person nerding out over quasi-self-sufficient lunar colonies? I'd been thinking earlier on that the R&D situation would handicap space travel ITTL, but I guess it just goes to show that if you just keep funding the right agencies to the gills, you'll get what you want and more! It's also great that Free China managed to get up in space and pursue their unique brand of social benevolence. I love how you always pack in these obscure ideas from OTL like the ionosphere needles and musical roads that I'd never heard of before.

For story reasons I decided to operate on the idea that a generally late 20th and early 21st century base with a blank check would be to do miracles, despite being behind in rocketry and moving a little slowly to get started.

And yes, inserting obscure ideas from OTL is one of my favorite parts of AH.

to keep with tradition, i propose that the final war now starts with an Arabian rebellion after Drakia commits a heresy against Islam or something, preferably one that involves a piece of furniture.

:p
 
Instead of the moving and/or disfiguring of holy furniture why not the moving of sinful furniture into holy spaces? Maybe some especially "bright" Drakian Militarist setting up a checkpoint and command center on the plain of Muzdalifah or Mount Arafat or something in order to finally prevent the few Iranian and Indonesian pilgrims that somehow always end up slipping into the general human wave of Haji season from completing whatever wacky Secret War conspiracies the commander is absolutely convinced they're plotting. And thereby profaning the holy ground by which Muslims discharge one of the Five Pillars of their faith with armed nonbelievers.
 
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So how close have I gotten to what a Medieval post Drakia Africa would look like Ephraim?
Thank you! One of my pet peeves has long been dystopic empires in fiction whose evil policies never have any of the real-world negative consequences that hit authoritarian governments in reality. I don't mean that aren't shown causing people to suffer, I mean the pragmatic downsides to the Yukon Confederacy remaining in a constant state of cultural and technological stagnation, or Oceania not keeping accurate records of reality, or the Republican Union pushing cocaine on kids. Things that will make your government less effective at governing regardless of morality.

I also really don't like the idea of "a boot stamping on the human face forever". If we learn one thing from history, it's that all empires fall eventually and nothing lasts forever. I reject the idea of a Final Society- whether of a Draka slavocracy or a Communist utopia or Fukuyama's market liberal End of History consensus- in principle because such a thing is factually impossible. Sooner or later the Golden Age will end, or Dark Age will end, and humanity will move forward to the next stage of history.

I can't tell you exactly how this will end, but when it does it won't be because the planet is under the permanent rule of a brutal world state.
Thank you! Realistically the Republican Union should have collapsed during Operation Manifest Climax and never have gotten to the level of success they did.
 
I mean the pragmatic downsides to the Yukon Confederacy remaining in a constant state of cultural and technological stagnation, or Oceania not keeping accurate records of reality, or the Republican Union pushing cocaine on kids. Things that will make your government less effective at governing regardless of morality.
I much agree. What work is the "Republican Union" from? It's so generic a name that Google just gives me political parties.
I also really don't like the idea of "a boot stamping on the human face forever". If we learn one thing from history, it's that all empires fall eventually and nothing lasts forever. I reject the idea of a Final Society- whether of a Draka slavocracy or a Communist utopia or Fukuyama's market liberal End of History consensus- in principle because such a thing is factually impossible. Sooner or later the Golden Age will end, or Dark Age will end, and humanity will move forward to the next stage of history.
Some 'empires' did last many centuries though, so evil won't necessarily fall quickly. Though most of those did see some form of change or transition over the course of their existance.
Was that a deliberate typo or an accident? Either way I love it.:biggrin:
deliberate :p
You did in fact know where they went.;)
China: GOOD MORNING MOTHERFUCKERS!
Drakia: It's the middle of the night you savages.
China: I have sunrise in my pocket.
Drakia: WHAT THE FUC- boom.

Though, given how massively disadvantaged Drakia is I can't see them winning the Final War unless the AfD all get utter shit rolls and half of them collapse from internal strife. They're rather outmatched, like OTL WW2 Japan.
 
In defense of S. M. Stirling, in Drakon, it is stated that the colonists the Add sent in The Stone Dogs were now a major and much more advanced threat, and Draka was a hair from defeat after a surprise attack through wormholes.
 
I much agree. What work is the "Republican Union" from? It's so generic a name that Google just gives me political parties.
It comes from a TL on this site called What Madness Is This? by @Napoleon53 . To give a quick summery, the POD is that the Constitutional Convention fails and the U.S. begins to fray due to the Articles of Confederation kneecaping the federal government until the U.S. finally collapses after losing a war to Revolutionary France. The South forms their own nations while the U.S. remnant forms a new nation called the Republican Union of America. After a brutal Alt!War of 1812 that sees the RU ravaged and victimized by brutal British attacks, the RU radicalized and comes under the thrall of a creepy religious cult called the American Fundamentalist Church and that eventual turns the Republican Union into a demented, theocratic and fascistic state that reconquers the South and wages a genocidal war against Mexico and Quebec(which a victorious Napoleonic France had retaken from the British.) The RU has a frothing, genocidal hatred of Catholics, Latinos, the French, and the Slavic and Asian people’s(except for the Japanese for some reason)

There really is no way to properly describe the TL as it would do it no justice to the sheer insanity of it, but there are two versions of it. The first one can be found here. However, @Napoleon53 wrote a remake of the TL with the first part here and the second part here.
 
I much agree. What work is the "Republican Union" from? It's so generic a name that Google just gives me political parties.
The others have given a solid basic summary and I'd highly recommend it, it's one of my all time favorites! It's got a delightful strain of black comedy running through it that keeps it from tipping over the edge to unendurably bleak "first episode of Man in the High Castle" levels.
 
This is kinda off-topic, but man, whenever people on this site recommend these big, high-quality timelines that have been in the works for years, it really shows how much content is on here that I still want to get into one day. "Age of Miracles" is one of the first that made me into a regular visitor of this site, and after awhile I got sucked into "Look to the West" after seeing all the references to it people make (still only on volume 4 though). And these days my main fix has been "Moonlight in a Jar," which has been fascinating as well. The great thing with having such a diverse, high-quality body of work on here, EBR's present thread included of course, is that I can switch back and forth without getting sick of it if there was only one to read at once. There's always a new storytelling style to dive into and new cultural interests to learn about--I feel like getting into alt-hist has done more for me brushing up on OTL historical knowledge than if I based it all on books about what actually happened. Anyways, that's enough poetic waxings out of me!
 
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A general map of the world question...
Please help me figure out who is aligned to whom. Is the following correct?

Situationalists: China, Tibet.
Pact of Blood (and aligned)" East Asia (Korea/Manchuria/Mongolia), Japan, Most of Europe other than France, and the Drakia (which covers Africa and the middle East)
AFD: Western Hemisphere other than Central America and Colombia, France, Lithuania (Scandanavia?), India, South East Asia(?) and Oceania.

Who controls OTL Asiatic Russia? Wondering if you can walk from Seoul to Aurica through Pact of Blood Territory.

What is the total population balance on the planet? Does the AFD have half???
 
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