Sengoku WI: A better end for Ouchi Yoshitaka?

Vinization

Ouchi Yoshitaka was a Japanese daimyo who led the Ouchi clan, which at its height ruled most of Chugoku and northern Kyushu, from 1528 to 1551. He spent his early reign fighting the Amago clan, but after a disastrous defeat in an attempt to conquer Izumo province in 1542 withdrew from military affairs and spent the rest of his life in his capital of Yamaguchi. During this time he welcomed the Jesuit missionary Francis Xavier and came up with a plan to transfer the imperial Japanese court from Kyoto to Yamaguchi, but he was deposed and forced to commit suicide. After a few years of decline, the Ouchi were eventually eclipsed by the Mori as the dominant force in Chugoku.

So what if his campaign in Izumo succeeded and the Amago were defeated for good? Where could the Ouchi expand from that point on, and could they march on Kyoto? His wikipedia article says Yoshitaka had good relations with the emperor (hence the plan to move him to Yamaguchi), so perhaps such a move could be seen with a little more legitimacy than an usual armed takeover?

Lastly, could Yoshitaka keep his retainers (such as Mori Motonari) in line?
 
Ambassador Huntsman

Ambassador Huntsman

Vinization said:
@Ambassador Huntsman

Sorry, but you're the only Sengoku guy I know of. :coldsweat:
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It’s hard to see how Yoshitaka wouldn’t fail at that campaign as the reason why the Ouchi-Mouri army (the Mouri sided with the Ouchi) was because Kikkawa Okitsune betrayed the Ouchi by sprinting into Gassan-Toda Castle while acting as the vanguard of Yoshitaka’s coalition army in a pre-planned plot with the late Amago Tsunehisa (his death served as the opportunity Yoshitaka attempted to exploit). Also Amago Haruhisa was no pushover and was a formidable foe of the Mouri even after the latter conquered the entirety of the Ouchi clan.

But let’s say he wins and Okitsune never betrays the Ouchi. It’s possible that Yoshitaka is able to take Kyoto after plowing through everything else in between. He would have to contend with Miyoshi Nagayoshi though so that could be interesting. Beyond that I’m not sure. Yoshitaka had good relations with the emperor because Yamaguchi welcomed a lot of court nobility in the aftermath of the Onin War and the utter devastation of Kyoto by Yoshitaka’s father Yoshioki so maybe. The Mouri clan for sure wouldn’t rebel against Yoshitaka although they would become their greatest ally much like the Tokugawa were the Oda’s greatest ally.

One interesting tidbit is that Okitsune was both Mouri Motonari’s nephew-in-law/biological nephew and Okitsune’s betrayal paved the way for Mouri Motonari to use those relations as an excuse to take over the Kikkawa clan and make his second son Motoharu its new head. So if Yoshitaka had won, the Kikkawa clan would not have been taken over by the Mouri.
 

Vinization

Ambassador Huntsman said:
It’s hard to see how Yoshitaka wouldn’t fail at that campaign as the reason why the Ouchi-Mouri army (the Mouri sided with the Ouchi) was because Kikkawa Okitsune betrayed the Ouchi by sprinting into Gassan-Toda Castle while acting as the vanguard of Yoshitaka’s coalition army in a pre-planned plot with the late Amago Tsunehisa (his death served as the opportunity Yoshitaka attempted to exploit). Also Amago Haruhisa was no pushover and was a formidable foe of the Mouri even after the latter conquered the entirety of the Ouchi clan.

But let’s say he wins and Okitsune never betrays the Ouchi. It’s possible that Yoshitaka is able to take Kyoto after plowing through everything else in between. He would have to contend with Miyoshi Nagayoshi though so that could be interesting. Beyond that I’m not sure. Yoshitaka had good relations with the emperor because Yamaguchi welcomed a lot of court nobility in the aftermath of the Onin War and the utter devastation of Kyoto by Yoshitaka’s father Yoshioki so maybe. The Mouri clan for sure wouldn’t rebel against Yoshitaka although they would become their greatest ally much like the Tokugawa were the Oda’s greatest ally.

One interesting tidbit is that Okitsune was both Mouri Motonari’s nephew-in-law/biological nephew and Okitsune’s betrayal paved the way for Mouri Motonari to use those relations as an excuse to take over the Kikkawa clan and make his second son Motoharu its new head. So if Yoshitaka had won, the Kikkawa clan would not have been taken over by the Mouri.
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If you don't mind me asking, what are your sources on the Sengoku period? Is it stuff that can be accessed through Google Scholar? That way I could learn about this period without relying on Wikipedia so much and pinging you.
 
Ambassador Huntsman

Ambassador Huntsman

Vinization said:
If you don't mind me asking, what are your sources on the Sengoku period? Is it stuff that can be accessed through Google Scholar? That way I could learn about this period without relying on Wikipedia so much and pinging you.
Click to expand...
When I was going to Japanese school in the states, the library had a bunch of educational manga books on Japanese history and I just read all of them. I’ve also been watching NHK’s historical drama since I was 10 and just in general I’m just into history including US and other world history. Being able to speak, read, and write Japanese helps so much, I think that’s the best way I can put it. Japan’s a second home country for me so I’m just super interested and invested personally.
 

Vinization

Ambassador Huntsman said:
When I was going to Japanese school in the states, the library had a bunch of educational manga books on Japanese history and I just read all of them. I’ve also been watching NHK’s historical drama since I was 10 and just in general I’m just into history including US and other world history. Being able to speak, read, and write Japanese helps so much, I think that’s the best way I can put it. Japan’s a second home country for me so I’m just super interested and invested personally.
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Got it, that's really cool.

One last question, could the Ouchi get exclusive trading rights with Ming China in 1523, assuming the Hosokawa fail (somehow) to bribe the officials responsible for regulating it? This could butterfly the Ningbo Incident away, unless the Hosokawa do the rampaging instead.
 

Alex Zetsu

I'm sad I never heard of Ouchi Yoshitaka. He sounds interesting. Not quite the same as the OP, but I wonder if his only expansion ambition was Izumo and he still sided with Sagara Taketō in focusing inward on Aki rather than further expansion. I wonder if the plan to move the court would work in this case, at least he's less likely to have a reputation of being a "has been" to his retainers.
 
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