Seljuk Kiev: What if the Turks were forced North?

Keenir

Banned
The conquest of Persia was much easier because of lack of political unity. They destroyed one kingdom after another.

so...a mass of small kingdoms not far removed from their Viking forebears, is harder to get a foodhold into, than a single vast kingdom? :confused:

at least with the small kingdoms, they can take over one or two, and use those as a base of operations.

Also mind relatively low morale of persian soldiers and issues of supplies. It's obvious that Persian gives good infrastructure for easy supply of invasion army, what definitely can't be said about Russia

Russia didn't have good supply lines for an army?

well, Napoleon can certainly confirm that. :cool:

And what would they eat?:D

the local food, of course.

if you're suggesting they'd fail because of boar meat, I should remind you that - under Islamic dietary laws - even haram foods such as pork are permitted if consuming those foods allows the faithful to be alive and in good health.

Are you sure? Turkic tribes (Kipchaks mostly - but among Kipchak really turkic was only part of nobility - these were people of Indo-European origin) served mostly as auxiliary troops but spine of the army were still Mongols

I could be literalist, and tell you that Mongols are a sibling language family to Turkish...but I won't, because that isn't what I'd been referring to.
 
Continuation: Dracula Cameo!

1390 C.E.- Vlad II is born in Wallachia (Southern Romania).

1425 C.E.- Vlad II leads an insurrection against the Turks, expelling them from Wallachia.

1430 C.E.- Vlad II recieves the title, "Dracul" for his service to the holy Order of the Dragon.

1445 C.E.- The armies of Vlad II Dracul penetrated as far as OTL Moldova.

1448 C.E.- Vlad III continues his father's battles, garnering support from the Romanian population. He was later infamous for his sadism, but this nevertheless frightened Turkish leaders. When news arrived in Kiev, the Sultan was skeptical of some claims.

1486 C.E.- Vlad III Dracul died in battle against the Turkish army near Budapest. This was at first reassuring to the Turks, hearing that the infamous Dracula was slain, but the Turkish advance was only temporary. Though Romania was occupied well as far south as Wallachia, by 1436 Most of Romania was freed from Turkish rule, and by 1454, parts of OTL Ukraine and Hungary were under Romanian control, ending nearly four centuries of Turkish domination.

Essentially since the people called Turks in the OTL are based in the taiga and steppes between Ladoga, the Urals, and the Crimea-Caucasus region (as opposed to Asia Minor) Turkish expansion into the Mideast would be virtually nonexistant and expansion into the Balkan region would proceed from northeast rather than southeast. This narrative is set during a brave resistance of invaders from north of the Black Sea by the Romanians (with a cameo appearance of Vlad the Impaler AKA Dracula :D ), echoing the OTL struggles of the Hellenes against the Turks south of the Black Sea. Note that around this time (14th-15th century), the Eastern European Turkish Empire is still surviving well enough but the Romanians have managed to reverse the Turkish conquest. Notice that the dynasty during this period is unnamed. Perhaps the Seljuks are still in power, but more likely it is a new dynasty. Maybe the Ottomans? Granted, when one considers butterflies and whatnot, chances are Osman would not be in power either. So I have to decide how long the Seljuk clan stays in power and who the next Turkish dynasty would be.

Meanwhile, I plan on expanding this vingette, weaving it into the larger story, and describe the interactions between "Seljukistan" or Seldzouk Tourkiya (possible ATL names for this new country, Persian and Greek respectively) and the Empire of the Great Khan, describing the eventual expansion of the Mongols a few centuries prior to this chapter. While Midgard has been harshly critical of this TL, I appreciate his criticism, especially his comments on the usefuleness of a centralized state against a Mongol horde. (How would a "Sultunate" of Kiev fare against the Khanate of the Golden Horde?)

As for some comments regarding my TL:

Originally Posted by Keenir
ah, a pan-Turanist timeline. :)
...probably outweighed by the surviving Byzantium.
:D

Originally Posted by Analytical Engine
Mmm, Byzantine Empire, drool. :D

Basically for those curious about why I started this timeline, well as someone of Hellenic ancestry, there is a certain historical wishful thinking. Had events proceded as in ATL, the conquest and genocide of my ancestors (as well as the Armenians, Kurds, and other Anatolian peoples) would have been evaded. As an added bonus, the Byzantine Empire survives for at least a few more centuries! The Ottoman Empire would have never come to power, so though this is in no way Turkish nationalism, curiously, a pan-Turanist scenario would emerge regardless... Furthermore, the disappearance of the Russian nation means no Soviet Union down the line!

Of course, this leaves the question about the new balance of power in Europe. As some have predicted, Poland would probably be a major power in Central-East Europe. Also, after repelling the Turkish occupation of the Romanians (I have not written much about the background, but it was significantly shorter than the OTL Turkish conquest of the Greeks), Romania emerged as a significant empire, for a long time dominating OTL Romania, Moldova, Hungary, most of Bulgaria, and even parts of OTL Ukraine, Austria, and some Yugoslav areas. While Romania would usually be allied with the Byzantines, at times territorial disputes in the Balkans would result.

Meanwhile, depending on how far I want to take this timeline, assuming the eventual imperialism and colonialism by Europeans, what would the "Great War" look like?
 
Originally Posted by Midgard
That was the one thing I postulated as being one of the ways their conquest could have succeeded - but then, it would have taken much longer than a few years you have had it happen in...

Then perhaps I should revise my timeline. Of course, I would have to completely rewrite the chronology.

Originally Posted by Midgard
...and when the Rurikids had a strong figurehead leader (as they did with Vladimir - think of him as Russian Barbarossa), that leader would not quite allow the underlings to get out of line. If you have the invasion when there is no such leader, it would be more plausible, but with Vladimir around?

Then such an invasion (without a strongman) would be much more plausible. On the other hand, if the Turks manage to sack Kiev and off Vladimir, the remaining Rus would be highly demoralized.

Originally Posted by Midgard
And in a meanwhile, the old dynasty, which still holds more than considerable lands and power, will just sit back and do nothing? This is the point I am contesting.

Depends on the size of the army and the pace of conquest. If the Sejulks have a massive enough population (and massive enough forces), then they would pose a greater challenge to remaining opposition.

Originally Posted by Midgard
There was no need to fight to the last, because they were not afraid that they would be exterminated/forcibly converted. While conversion is less of an issue at the time, a Russian prince would have less of an issue in paying tribute than in knowing that it is his throne on the stake.

Well I had in mind the fate of the Byzantines. They had at least as much motivation to fight to the last because they too faced extermination, forcible conversion, and assimilation at the hands of the Turks. Did the Byzantines get to keep their thrones? Hellenic lands in Greece and Anatolia were not mere protectorates or tributary areas. They were completely annexed! Yet despite a survival motive, the Turks still managed to conquer.

Originally Posted by Midgard
Quote:
I am sorry to say it, but nothing indicates to me that OTL Russia was NOT relatively backwards for most of its history.
Then you are missing the point I made... the Seljuk Russia is likely to be even more backwards, simply because, unlike Byzantium, there is not a thousand years of tradition, science, technology, and administration there at the time, and while Kiev and Novgorod were quite impressive, most of the rest was not quite there in 980. Russia conquered (and annexed) in 1240 would be quite different - and even then note the technological and the organizational disparity even the relatively backwards Russia of late Rurikid dynasty possessed against the remaining Mongol Khanates by 1500 to the point that Yermak managed to take over Siberia with a pitiful force.


Quote:
In the meantime, I thought of another possibility which the invaders might use to their advantage. Perhaps given the strong stratification of Russian culture, the Turks might use the class conflict to their advantage, perhaps somehow utilizing uprisings to destabilize the Rus leadership.
Wrong. Stratification of the nature you are describing did not appear in Russian society until (and quite possibly as an indirect result of) the Mongol conquest, further strengthened by Muscowy's autocratic tendencies. Russian society circa 980-1000 actually still possesses a reasonable degree of social mobility - perhaps more so than many states in Europe, while in some parts (Novgorod in particular) the outlook is already semi-republican, only to become even more liberal (for the time) later on. An anachronism if I see one.

I admit, my [mis]understanding concerning Russian backwardness is a-historical. For one thing, look at modern Russia (1991-present). After the breakup of the USSR, Russia has reduced to a third world kleptocracy, deteriorating politically and at the brink mafia rule. But before then, Russia was dominated by communist tyrrany ala the bolsheviks. But before then, Russia was dominated by czarist despotism, which made Lenin's coup possible in the first place. The czars have kept Russia in a backwards medieval state (although artistic and scientific progress nevertheless occured in limited form), and this tragic history props up the stereotype. Basically I do not know enough about Medieval Russia (before the Muscovites & Romanovs) to understand as well as you. For one thing I anachronistically projected recent Russian caste stratification to earlier times.

Of course, a Seljuk-dominated Russia probably would be more backwards. For one thing, assuming the course of history proceeds similarly with a European Great War happening in the 19th or 20th century, presumably whatever side this Turkish "Russia-Ukraine" fights, you could expect that the then dynasty (be it Ottomans or whomever) would get involved in the ATL WW1 and fall only to be replaced by a fascist state. Given the currents of nationalism/racism and ultra-conservative Islam the resulting regime would either be a racist nationalist-fascist dictatorship with Turkish supremacy as ideology led by a "Turkish Hitler" (Mustafa Kemal Ataturk?) or else an Islamic theocracy like the Taliban or the Ayatollah's Iran. Therefore, assuming a similar course of history and disregarding butterflies the ATL WW2 would probably involve an alliance of the "West" (France, Germany, Brits, Greeks, Italy, USA, Canada, or w/e North American nation(s) formed, whatever is left of Poland and Romania, etc.) against the a nation whose ideology would either consist of Turkish supremacist fascism (echoing OTL Nazism) or Islamist theocracy. Rethinking this timeline, perhaps things would turn out worse!

On the bright side, there is a possibility that the Islamic Middle East would have turned out better... Some say that the Golden Age in the Islamic region would have continued were it not for the conservative and reactionary approach to Islam of the Seljuks (whose influence disappeared from the region in this ATL), and the subsequent crusades which marked the conflict between the Christian and Muslim spheres. The crusades either would never happen or would have occured in a different and less severe form. Fact is, during much of the Middle Ages, Europe (with the partial exception of Byzantium) was typically backwards compared to the Islamic world, which was semi-secularized in some respects (at least more so than Christian Europe). Also, a longer lasting Byzantine Empire might help progress in the area. In the wake of the former Byzantine spheres of influence, a more pluralistic society of Christian and Muslim residents might mean faster secularization... on the optimistic side. Alternately this could mean more conflict...
 

Keenir

Banned
Of course, a Seljuk-dominated Russia probably would be more backwards. For one thing, assuming the course of history proceeds similarly with a European Great War happening in the 19th or 20th century, presumably whatever side this Turkish "Russia-Ukraine" fights, you could expect that the then dynasty (be it Ottomans or whomever) would get involved in the ATL WW1 and fall only to be replaced by a fascist state. Given the currents of nationalism/racism and ultra-conservative Islam the resulting regime would either be a racist nationalist-fascist dictatorship with Turkish supremacy as ideology led by a "Turkish Hitler" (Mustafa Kemal Ataturk?)

what?????

or else an Islamic theocracy like the Taliban or the Ayatollah's Iran. Therefore, assuming a similar course of history and disregarding butterflies the ATL WW2 would probably involve an alliance of the "West" (France, Germany, Brits, Greeks, Italy, USA, Canada,

if we're disregarding butterflies, why is Germany one of the Allies?

heck, Turkey was one of the Allies in OTL.

or w/e North American nation(s) formed, whatever is left of Poland and Romania, etc.) against the a nation whose ideology would either consist of Turkish supremacist fascism (echoing OTL Nazism) or Islamist theocracy. Rethinking this timeline, perhaps things would turn out worse!

you're forgetting that history will change. heck, you yourself said that it changes within the initial 50 years -- it won't become OTL after two hundred more.
 

Stalker

Banned
so...a mass of small kingdoms not far removed from their Viking forebears, is harder to get a foodhold into, than a single vast kingdom? :confused:
at least with the small kingdoms, they can take over one or two, and use those as a base of operations.
Keenir, I strongly advise that you refreshed your knowledge of 11th century Russ.:p
What small kingdoms? What are you telling about?
And who told you that Russians had Normandic origin? Or even Rurik dinasty? It's still a deeply disputable issue. If you didn't know that, there's a well-grounded trend in historiography deriving Rurik's descend from Obodrite (Bodrichi) rulers.
and this tragic history props up the stereotype
Holy truth - unfortunately the only truth I was able to find in the whole passage, mon cher ami.:p
 
@Stalker: In Russian historiography, I guess? And if this is true: Who invented the legend of Viking Rurikids then?

I still believe that Russia's comparable backwardsness was caused by the Mongols. The Seljuks can't be worse - they might even bring lots of useful knowledge and culture from their Persian homes.
 

Keenir

Banned
Keenir, I strongly advise that you refreshed your knowledge of 11th century Russ.:p

happily. If I may ask, what books do you recommend?

What small kingdoms? What are you telling about?

I was using the information provided earlier in the thread -- more than one poster said that there were a lot of small kingdoms in the lands of the Rus'

And who told you that Russians had Normandic origin? Or even Rurik dinasty? It's still a deeply disputable issue. If you didn't know that, there's a well-grounded trend in historiography deriving Rurik's descend from Obodrite (Bodrichi) rulers.

didn't a whole lot of Vikings settle in the area? that's all I was referring to.
 
Originally Posted by Keenir
if we're disregarding butterflies, why is Germany one of the Allies?

heck, Turkey was one of the Allies in OTL.

I am not completely disregarding butterflies. I am only assuming that Europe follows a similar (though obviously different) course of actions following the formation of "Seljuk Kiev", the (lack of) Crusades, the Mongol conquest or attempt on the Kievan Turks, the Bubonic Plague. Essentially the following events are assumed to follow:
1. Holy Roman Empire
2. Renaissance
3. China remains culturally conservative and isolationist (though Euros still recieve black powder among other Chinese innovations)
4. Italian "mercantile empire"
5. Transatlantic exploration
6. Iberian nations (Spain & Portugal) initially lead, possibly with similar results- Mexico, Carribean, South & Central America mostly Spanish, Portuguese Brazil
7. Colonization of North America- Spanish likely dominate OTL US Southwest, California, Florida, etc. perhaps they are more successful? Anglo-French competition. Perhaps Canada and/or future USA become French (A Franciphone North America?). French North America about as plausible as English one. When one consides butterflies, who knows?
8. Growth of poweful, wealthy merchant class, undermines feudalism, catalyzes nation states and parliaments (limited monarchies, constitutionalism, rule of law), urban middle class (origins of burgeoisie and petit-burgeoisie), further undermining of feudalism, proto-capitalist social order emerges (partially from 4).
9. Industrial Revolution (from 8).
10. Enlightenment (from 2, 4, 8, and 9)
11. French Revolution
12. A Corsican named Napoleon Bonaparte (or else a similar Frenchman) launches a dictatorship, declares himself Emperor of France, and aims to conquer Europe and maybe the world. (Faces similar fate as Napoleon.)
13. Unification of Germany. (from 1 and 12) Emergence of Second Reich.
14. Franco-Prussian Conflict
15. World War One type conflict in late 19th or early 20th century.

(Note one major difference, the lack of a Reformation. I assumed earlier that Martin Luther and Jean Calvin would be "butterflied away" or else a more divided Christendom would prove hazardous for resisting Islam, which IATL is in Europe's backyard. At most Luther and Calvin would be like Jan Hus or Wyclife, and there would be no Protestantism, at least beyond a fringe movement and the Catholics have a sort of reformation. Otherwise a Catholic-Protestant schism (and further splintering) would be less able to keep their subjects from converting to Islam.)

Of course, many of these events are FAR from inevitable, let alone around their OTL dates. (Hence why I said "disregarding butterflies.") For instance, while the Renaissance and Enlightenment may seem inevitable, and it seems clear that the eventual obsolecence of feudalism, emergence of nation states, Industrial Revolution, and emergence of capitalism seem inevitable, the political dynamic of Europe is completely different! For one thing, where would the Hapsburg Empire fall in this? Considering the presence of a strong Poland and Byzantine Empire, the emergence of a rising Romania and the lack of an Ottoman Empire in Asia Minor, the dynamic in the Balkan Penninsula and Central Europe is completely different! Also, what effect would a surviving Byzantine Empire have on the High Middle Ages and Renaissance? What is to say the unification of Germany (Second Reich) happens? What about Napoleon? Would Napoleon rise to power? Would someone else? On the other hand what if Napoleon were succesful and dominated all of Europe either directly through the French Empire or indirectly through protectorates, tributaries, and puppet states under the Napoleonic Code? Most importantly, what is to say there would even be a Franco-Prussian War (perhaps the main cause of WWI IOTL) and it turns out similar?

Consider the following then. First off, given that the lands now known as Russia and Ukraine (as well as parts of the Baltic coast, Siberia, part of Karelia, etc.) are inhabited by Muslim Turks in this scenario, Europe would end as far East as Poland, the Swedish-influenced areas of Karelia-Finnland (I count Finns as Swedes because IOTL, Finns basically ARE Uralic-speaking Swedish Vikings), and Romania. The Turks would not be considered European because in this TL they are neither racially European nor Christian. Given that there is no geological boundary of Europe from the rest of Eurasia, an Asiatic Muslim people would not be considered Europeans. Being adjacent to Europe though, the Turks would still be involved in European affairs, albeit moreso as outsiders.

Now in assuming a relatively similar course of events durring the nineteenth century, we get the following European nations: Britain, France, Portugal, Spain, Italy, Germany (incl. OTL Austria), Netherlands, Poland, Romania, and Greece, among other nations. Now why did France and Russia form an Entente? The logical reason is in light of the reunified Germany and the Franco-Prussian entanglement, the French and Russians saw the emergence of the "Teutonic threat" as being against their interests. Given their geographical separation, a conflict of interests between France and Russia is unlikely (except in the case of extreme expansion such as that under Napoleon), but Prussian expansionism proved a challenge. In this case, Poland would take the place of Russia (as someone else in this thread already said). So a Franco-Polish entente seems likely. It is likely that if the Czechs/Slovakis have an independent nation(s) they would ally with the Poles (ethnic ties) unless there is a severe conflict of interest.

Meanwhile, Britain's imperial interests include preventing a monopoly of power in Europe. Hence, who Britain sides with depends on who they view as the greater threat. If for instance, the Brits also view the Second Reich as a threat of continental hegemony, then they would most likely join the Franco-Polish Entente, forming a Triple Entente similar to the OTL. If the Brits experience a nostalgic paranoia of Napoleonic expansion, they would probably ally with Germany, forming an Anglo-Deutsch alliance. If we assume that the Iberian nations show a similar disinterest in European affairs, prefering the world outside, then Spanish and Portuguese neutrality is to be expected. It is uncertain where Romania, the Byzantine Empire (if it still exists) or whatever Hellenic state, and the Yugoslavians would stand in such a conflict if they would even enter.

But where would "Kievan Turkistan" stand? The nation is linguistically, religiously, and (to a somewhat lesser extent) culturally the same as OTL Turkey. However the nation is also in the same geographical position and in a similar economic mode to OTL Russia. Whomever they side with may determine the conditions. Would they side with the Franco-Polish Entente or the Anglo-Deutsch alliance? (Alternately, the Triple Entente or Germany and its allies-probably incl. Byzantines/Greeks?) Either way, if the side that the Turks are on lose, then they are likely to revert to fascism (as happened to Germany IOTL), but even if they win, they still might be disillusioned (two of the fascist Axis Powers, Italy and Japan, were on the victorious coalition in WW1). As such, given the historical tendencies of Turkey IOTL plus a less pleasant (and depressing) dry winter climate, minus the pleasant inebriating effects of Vodka (which Islam forbids), a reactionary regime seems fairly unavoidable.

Of course, I did say that we should disregard butterflies, but the fact is, if we seriously considered butterflies, then the likelihood of events unfolding in the altered timeline in such an eerily similar manner as in the OTL, is so unlikely as to be ASB. I assumed that the processes of industrialization, colonialism, imperialism (including Napoleonic or similar French expansionism and reunification of Germany) was similar enough. Of course since there is one crucial difference, the existence of an Islamic Turkish empire in Europe's backyard, things would inevitably be different. For one thing, the Nazis emerge IOTL from post-war conditions. I never said everything would be exactly the same. Thus perhaps Germany's side wins. Perhaps there is a stalemate. On the other hand, perhaps the French side is so successful that they enact a treaty worse than the OTL Versaille and manage to enforce it (so a Nazi-esque movement would probably result but would never pose a threat beyond German borders). Even so, in the ATL, Khazaria survives for some time, and the Jewish diasporas would not have been as significant. It is likely that the Turks at their worst would not have treated the Jews as badly as Russia under the Czars.

Even so, there is a strong historical tradition of racism in Turkish society, and Turkish supremacism has the potential to be way worse than "Aryan nationalism". The only major difference is that the Nazis were obsessed with racial purity, but for the Turks, racial purity is not too important so long as ethnic groups assimilate culturally and biologically. So a Nazi-esque dictatorship is a possibility. An Islamist theocracy is also possible (a Suni version of Iran). And in lieu of any major fascist movements in Europe proper, it is likely that the Europeans would unite against such a totalitarian establishment if it becomes a threat. (Similarly, in some timelines, where WW1 ends in a stalemate, or a very close Entente victory (read: no Versaille), but Lenin still makes it to Petrograd and forms the Soviet Union, some anticipate a scenario where Germany breaks its grudge with France and Britain. WW2 then consists of the non-Communist nations of Europe teaming up with USA and the rest of the Anglosphere against the Soviets and their commie allies to destroy Bolshevism (usually happens between 1930-1950).)
 
ADDENDUM:
Note- Just want to clarify the Great War scenario is NON-CANONICAL! The "Dracula Cameo" Scenario IS canon however, and the main timeline is canon for now. Of course I plan on revising it for historical accuracy (to make the conquest more plausible) if I get the chance.
 

Keenir

Banned
(Note one major difference, the lack of a Reformation. I assumed earlier that Martin Luther and Jean Calvin would be "butterflied away" or else a more divided Christendom would prove hazardous for resisting Islam,

?

which IATL is in Europe's backyard.

yes, and Greece and Italy and Spain prove that no Christian can survive prolonged proximity to Dar-al-Islam without converting to it.;) :rolleyes:

At most Luther and Calvin would be like Jan Hus or Wyclife, and there would be no Protestantism, at least beyond a fringe movement and the Catholics have a sort of reformation. Otherwise a Catholic-Protestant schism (and further splintering) would be less able to keep their subjects from converting to Islam.)

??

many religious groups from that schism actually sought the protection of Islamic rulers...and themselves never converted.

Consider the following then. First off, given that the lands now known as Russia and Ukraine (as well as parts of the Baltic coast, Siberia, part of Karelia, etc.) are inhabited by Muslim Turks in this scenario, Europe would end as far East as Poland, the Swedish-influenced areas of Karelia-Finnland (I count Finns as Swedes because IOTL, Finns basically ARE Uralic-speaking Swedish Vikings), and Romania. The Turks would not be considered European because in this TL they are neither racially European nor Christian.

so Albania, Greece, and Cyprus are...what?

none of them are racially European. (Albania and Cyprus aren't even Christian - nor is Poland or Greece, depending on how you define "Christian")

in OTL - and I don't doubt in this ATL - there are many Christian Turks. what about them?

Given that there is no geological boundary of Europe from the rest of Eurasia, an Asiatic Muslim people would not be considered Europeans.

why not?

I'm serious - why wouldn't they be considered European? they'd be just as white as anyone else in Europe. (you're confusing their Asian origins, with where they've been living for over 800 years)

Being adjacent to Europe though, the Turks would still be involved in European affairs, albeit moreso as outsiders.

Russia was seen as part of Europe, wasn't it?

Even so, there is a strong historical tradition of racism in Turkish society,

references, please?

An Islamist theocracy is also possible (a Suni version of Iran).

in OTL, that's called Saudi Arabia.
 
One reason Asia Minor got Turkified so quickly is b/c many peasants, oppressed by their foreign mercenary landlords, welcomed the Turks as liberators and intermarried with them.

The Byzantine Empire at the time of Manzikert was rather weak internally, despite an impressive exterior.

The Rus might give the Turks real problems in TTL. Even in Asia Minor in OTL, peasant akritai helped hold the line for centuries, while 10-15% of the Turks ultimately converted to Christianity.

I'm thinking that the Seljuks will take only part of Rus territory (one or two sub-kingdoms, perhaps), and get "contained." I suspect they will get assimilated like the Bulgars after awhile, although they might leave some interesting cultural changes behind them.
 
yes, and Greece and Italy and Spain prove that no Christian can survive prolonged proximity to Dar-al-Islam without converting to it.
Indeed, no Greeks or Italian converted to Islam during the Middle Ages as far as I know, despite close contact and even, Muslim domination of both lands. Islam had little success in Spain/Portugal among the native population. However, the opposite is true in Albania (as your own example attests, see below) and some Yugoslavians (e.g. Bosnians, possibly Fyromians). Also, there are significantly many Muslim Bulgarians. But you are missing the point. I am not saying that mere distance, contact, even occupation and conquest would convert populations. Only that divisiveness could enable a foreign religion to make inroads. The divisiveness from a Reformation could have the following consequences which could help spread Islam: (1) if Catholics tolerate the various Protestant sects and vice versa, this would lead to a pluralistic society, and a partial secularization of the state, enabling *some* people interested to adopt the faith of their Muslim neighbors, (2) the lack of a strong leadership to guide correct doctrine or guard against foreign evangelization could distract the established creeds and allow foreign religious elements to make inroads, (3) corruption in the ranks of the Roman Catholic Church and the obviously political ambition of Protestantism might lead cynical Christians toward Islam.
many religious groups from that schism actually sought the protection of Islamic rulers...and themselves never converted.
Interesting, is that so? I do not recall any Protestants seeking asylum in Muslim lands. Then again, the Monophysite Churches did find safe haven from the Constantinian Church (ancestral church to the Roman Catholics and Eastern Orthodox), e.g. Coptic Church in Arab-dominated Egypt and Sudan. Still, some Protestants who fled might have converted to Islam anyways. While Jews converted to Christianity to avoid persecution, and Christians would not likely face the same persecution in Muslim lands, since Medieval Islam was generally tolerant of Judaism and Christianity, such migrants might convert to appeal to their hosts...
so Albania, Greece, and Cyprus are...what?none of them are racially European.
You're joking, RIGHT? Albanians, Greeks, and Cypriots are not racially European? Then what the hell are they? Blacks? Asians? Native Americans?
(Albania and Cyprus aren't even Christian...
No, Albania is not Christian. The Albanians were Christianized early on. (I am pretty sure they were mostly Eastern Orthodox for a time.) So, Albanians do have a Christian heritage of sorts, but they converted to Islam en masse at some point. Today Albanians (including Kosovars) are Muslim for the most part but there is still a significant Christian population in Albania. Mother Theresa was a Catholic Albanian. And Cypriots are Greek Orthodox, so Cyprus IS Christian, pal! The Cypriots are a Hellenic people, and Cypriot faithful maintained Orthodox Christianity. The origin of the Greek Cypriots is obscure, but Greeks on Cyprus have had a continuous presence for thousands of years. (The earliest Cypriot Hellenes are thought to have settled nearly 3000 years ago, in the Homeric (Dark) Age, or even near the end of the Mycenean era, from the Peloponesus. Many Hellenic people have settled on the island during the Classical Age, including Doric and Attic-Ionic Greeks.)
...nor is Poland or Greece, depending on how you define "Christian")
You must be joking! Otherwise, your ignorance is outstanding. Poland is Roman Catholic and Greece is Eastern Orthodox. How the hell could anyone consider then not Christian? Such a definition of "Christian" would exclude two of the oldest branches of Christianity! To anyone who would define Christianity to exclude Catholic Poland and the Greek Orthodox Church, when and where did Christianity originate, 19th century Illinois? And who was the last prophet (and founder)? The 13th Apostle, Joseph Smith? Let me guess, the home base of Christendom is Salt Lake City, Utah!
in OTL - and I don't doubt in this ATL - there are many Christian Turks. what about them?
First, by Christian Turks do you mean Turkish by ethnicity or by nationality? Despite propaganda to the contrary, Turkey is a multi-ethnic state. Of course, the Turkish government classifies Kurds as "Mountain Turks." Most likely, Anatolian Christians were assimilated into the Turks (not all janissaries converted to Islam), and even if some Turks adopted Christianity, they are very very few. Fact is Turkey is overwelmingly Muslim. After all, a significant number of British are atheists, but England is still considered an Anglican country. (In fact, if I am not mistaken, Anglicans are no longer the majority in the UK. I am not even sure if there is a Christian majority there for long.) Paradoxically, in ATL there might be fewer Christian Turks.
Because there is no real geographical basis for distinguishing Europe. Matter of fact, "Europe" is a cultural construct. Are Syria and Iran European nations? What about Kazakhstan and Bangladesh? Iranians/Perisans are native speakers of Aryan (Indo-European) languages! Iran must be a European nation, right? Sure France and Korea are at far ends of the Eurasian continent, but where does one draw the line? What is the boundary between Europe and the Middle East or Europe and Asia? The Caucasus and Ural Mountains respectively, right? Or between the Middle East and Asia? The Hindu Kush apparently. But that is bullshit! Mountain ranges do not make boundaries. Otherwise the Alpine mountain system (Alps, Dinarics, Balkans, Carpathians) together with the Pyrhenese and the Caucasus partitions the Mediterranean basis from the rest of Europe. So why don't we restrict Europe to the area North of these mountain chains, and lump the Iberian Peninsula, Italy, and the Balkan Peninsula with the Middle East as part of the lost continent of Mediterranea? (Or alternately classify the Balkans, Italy, and Iberia as Europe, since European civilization descends directly from Greek and Roman culture, native to this area, and call everything north of the Pyrhenese and Alpine chain "the Wildlands"?) The reason is because the nations of Europe are defined by more or less common ethnicity.
I'm serious - why wouldn't they be considered European? they'd be just as white as anyone else in Europe. (you're confusing their Asian origins, with where they've been living for over 800 years)
The Russians are a caucasoid people descended primarily from a homogeneous blend of two white Indo-European groups Eastern Slavs and Swedish Vikings (Varangians) with varying amounts of non-caucasian Asiatic admixture from Uralic (Finnic and Ugaritic/Magyar) and Altaic (Turkic- Khazars, Cumans, Penechegs, Bulgars, Tatars, etc.) peoples of Karelia, Siberia, and Central Asia as well as remnants of the Huns, Sarmatians, Scythians, and Avars. Not to mention some Mongolian admixture. The Russians are primarily white Europeans (Slavic/Germanic), but still have Asiatic admixture. The Turks on the other hand, are originally a Central Asian mongoloid people. Today, Turkish Turks are caucasian because the small Oghuz army mixed with various peoples of Asia Minor including Persians, Armenians, Greeks, Kurds, Arabs, Slavs, even Celts (Galatians) and Germanics (Ostrogoths), not to mention the pre-Hellenic, pre-Iranian inhabitants of Asia Minor, the Hittites, Luwians, Lydians, and Urartu. So modern Turks are an Armenoid people with significant Iranian, Slavic, Hellenic, and Semitic (Arab) admixture, and very little original Turkic ancestry. Your average Turk is really a Turkicized Greek, Armenian, Iranian, or Slav. The average Central Asian admixture in a Turkish person is just significant enough to appear, but lower than in certain adjacent groups. (According to some genetic studies, modern ethnic Greeks and Cypriots may have more Turanid (Central Asian Turkic) genes on average than Turks, meaning that modern Greeks are racially more Turkish than Turks! Bulgarians on the other hand, were found to have more Turkic ancestry than any other nation in Europe or the Middle East.) Of course, had the Turks settled on the Ukranian steppe rather than Asia Minor, they would have mostly assimilated other Turkic peoples (Bulgars, Khazars, Kalmyk) as well as Finno-Ugric peoples such as the Karelians and Magyars. Even some of the caucasoid people of the steppe such as Avars, Scythians, Sarmatians, and Ossettes have mixed with various Asiatic people (incl. Huns). Not to mention that after the Mongol contact (whether the Seljuk get conquered or withstand the conquest is not important), Genghis Khan's clan would further contribute to the gene pool, and as the Seljuk Empire expands eastward, it would likely assimilate Siberian peoples. Of course, many of the Rus (Slavs & Varangians) would also be assimilated, so the Turks would acquire some European traits, but they would still be mostly Asian. Furthermore, the overall population of Byzantine Anatolia, Syria, Mesopotamia, Persia, and Afghanistsn were higher and much more dense than that of the Russian-Ukranian steppe, so in this scenario, the Seljuk Turks would maintain more of their original Oghuz-Turkoman ancestry. Granted, there are no racially pure people anywhere on Earth (with the possible exceptions of the Andaman and Nicobar Islanders, some pygmies, and San) and we are all mixed, but most likely the Seljuks would retain Asian genes more than Caucasian ones in this scenario, and would thus be phenotypically more Asian than European. They still would not quite look like Mongolians, Chinese, Thais, etc. but they would be distinct from white Europeans.
Russia was seen as part of Europe, wasn't it?
IOTL, barely. Russia is usually considered "Eastern Europe". Still Europe, but when a more restrictive definition is used, is sometimes excluded where Greece and Western Europe qualify. Even Poland, Czechoslovakia, and Hungary (with the occasional inclusion of Finland if not counted as Scandinavia) are considered "Central Europe" as opposed to Bulgaria, Russia, Ukriane, Kalingrad, Belarus, and the Baltics. Still Russians are a mostly white people who speak a Slavic (Indo-European) language. They also have a Judeo-Christian tradition, as many Russians and Ukranians are Jews, Russian Orthodox, or Uniate ("Eastern Rite Catholics") Christians.
references, please?
While Europeans too have a history of racism (especially in the past five centuries), the Anatolian Turks have had an almost continous pattern of racism since their first foothold. This is NOT to say that every single Turk is or was racist or even that there were never brief periods of tolerance, but for the most part, Turkey was a racist nation. I understand that the ramifications of this are offensive and politically incorrect, but when a foreign ethnic group forces its way into new lands it will inevitably gain enemies. And thus, this racism emerges as a defense mechanism, especially once it conquers the natives. Throughout the Seljuk and Ottoman conquests, they have decimated considerable portions of the Greek, Armenian, and Kurdish populations, raped native women en masse, discouraged and even supressed using other languages in public, enslaved various non-Turks and kidnapped sons to be janissaries, and forcibly assimilated entire groups. Don't believe me? Ever heard of a little thing called the Armenian Genocide? Even today, in more enlightened times, most Turks vehemently oppose a Kurdish state in Iraq (despite the political clusterfuck surrounding that country) and deny that the Armenian genocide occured.
 
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Keenir

Banned
one thing: it would not kill you to use paragraph breaks.

Indeed, no Greeks or Italian converted to Islam during the Middle Ages as far as I know,

then who were the Greek-speaking Muslims (of Greek "race" and Greek ancestry) who moved to Turkey in 1925?

despite close contact and even, Muslim domination of both lands. Islam had little success in Spain/Portugal among the native population.

(2) the lack of a strong leadership to guide correct doctrine or guard against foreign evangelization could distract the established creeds and allow foreign religious elements to make inroads,

and who says McCarthyism is dead? :D

.Interesting, is that so? I do not recall any Protestants seeking asylum in Muslim lands.

not just individuals, but entire churches did.

...You're joking, RIGHT? Albanians, Greeks, and Cypriots are not racially European? Then what the hell are they? Blacks? Asians? Native Americans?

Greeks and Italians are more the same "race" than Greeks and Swedes are.

and Cypriot faithful maintained Orthodox Christianity.

despite attempts by Venice to convert them all.

You must be joking! Otherwise, your ignorance is outstanding. Poland is Roman Catholic and Greece is Eastern Orthodox. How the hell could anyone consider then not Christian?

each side excommunicated the other, remember?

Such a definition of "Christian" would exclude two of the oldest branches of Christianity! To anyone who would define Christianity to exclude Catholic Poland and the Greek Orthodox Church, when and where did Christianity originate, 19th century Illinois? And who was the last prophet (and founder)? The 13th Apostle, Joseph Smith? Let me guess, the home base of Christendom is Salt Lake City, Utah!

I'm going to guess that you don't like Mormons.

First, by Christian Turks do you mean Turkish by ethnicity or by nationality?

Turkish by ancestry. the Oghuz weren't the only branch of the Turkic family.

Despite propaganda to the contrary, Turkey is a multi-ethnic state.

"He who loves and defends his country is therefore a Turk." -Ataturk.

unlike its neighbors, Turkey didn't go for the race=nation definition of the time the nation was founded.

Most likely, Anatolian Christians were assimilated into the Turks (not all janissaries converted to Islam),

given how the Janissaries were raised, I'd say that that was impossible.

and even if some Turks adopted Christianity, they are very very few.

you've got a strange definition of "Turk".

Because there is no real geographical basis for distinguishing Europe. Matter of fact, "Europe" is a cultural construct.

therefore you can't omit a European nation just because you don't like it.

What is the boundary between Europe and the Middle East or Europe and Asia?

you seem to be looking for a dotted red line, that'll let you have either-or options, rather than a grey area that's a swath through a region.

The reason is because the nations of Europe are defined by more or less common ethnicity.

really? what ethnicity does Knossos, Sardinia, and Sweden have in common?

The Russians are a caucasoid people descended primarily from a homogeneous blend of two white Indo-European groups Eastern Slavs and Swedish Vikings (Varangians) with varying amounts of non-caucasian Asiatic admixture from Uralic (Finnic and Ugaritic/Magyar) and Altaic (Turkic- Khazars, Cumans, Penechegs, Bulgars, Tatars, etc.) peoples of Karelia, Siberia, and Central Asia as well as remnants of the Huns, Sarmatians, Scythians, and Avars. Not to mention some Mongolian admixture. The Russians are primarily white Europeans (Slavic/Germanic), but still have Asiatic admixture. The Turks on the other hand, are originally a Central Asian mongoloid people.

with Celtic, Greek, Roman ancestries, along with lesser amounts of other lineages from the west.

Your average Turk is really a Turkicized Greek, Armenian, Iranian, or Slav. The average Central Asian admixture in a Turkish person is just significant enough to appear, but lower than in certain adjacent groups. (According to some genetic studies, modern ethnic Greeks and Cypriots may have more Turanid (Central Asian Turkic) genes on average than Turks, meaning that modern Greeks are racially more Turkish than Turks!

you sound surprised.

Finno-Ugric peoples such as the Karelians and Magyars. Even some of the caucasoid people of the steppe such as Avars, Scythians, Sarmatians, and Ossettes have mixed with various Asiatic people (incl. Huns). Not to mention that after the Mongol contact (whether the Seljuk get conquered or withstand the conquest is not important), Genghis Khan's clan would further contribute to the gene pool, and as the Seljuk Empire expands eastward, it would likely assimilate Siberian peoples. Of course, many of the Rus (Slavs & Varangians) would also be assimilated, so the Turks would acquire some European traits, but they would still be mostly Asian.

Russia also sweeps westwards; and the move east was fairly recent.(less than 3 centuries ago)

They still would not quite look like Mongolians, Chinese, Thais, etc. but they would be distinct from white Europeans.

you have yet to define "white" or "European" though.

the Anatolian Turks have had an almost continous pattern of racism since their first foothold.

references, please?

Don't believe me? Ever heard of a little thing called the Armenian Genocide?

here we go again.

there are threads specifically for discussion of that.
 

Ian the Admin

Administrator
Donor
Even so, there is a strong historical tradition of racism in Turkish society, and Turkish supremacism has the potential to be way worse than "Aryan nationalism".

Hold it. You basically just accused modern Turkish society of having the potential to be worse than the Nazis on the racism angle - worse than people who threw over 10 million into gas chambers on racial grounds and planned to reshape eastern Europe to be an Aryan-dominated preserve - without substantiation or provocation.

That counts as fairly serious trolling, and that doesn't belong on this board.
 
Re: the Janissaries, I do recall reading somewhere that conversion was not forced on them, but owing to the fact that it opened lots of doors, most/almost all ended up doing so.

Given that most of them were taken very young and their own religious instruction beforehand was very crude (supposedly the first really organized religion they came across was in Constantinople), it is probable that conversion was also fairly easy.

There might be an isolated one or two (those taken at older ages, perhaps) whose Christianity might stick, but would they be allowed to become Janissaries? I somehow doubt that.
 
Also re: Janissaries, did the Seljuks ever have any institutions like that? I was under the impression Jews, Muslims, and Christians all served in the Seljuk army together--it was not as if one had to be a Muslim in order to be entrusted with training and weaponry.
 
Originally Posted by Keenir
then who were the Greek-speaking Muslims (of Greek "race" and Greek ancestry) who moved to Turkey in 1925?

Never heard of them. Hence why I said, "as far as I know."

Originally Posted by Keenir
Greeks and Italians are more the same "race" than Greeks and Swedes are.

Of course they are! Greeks and Italians might be classified as the Mediterranean race, but in reality there is no one "Mediterranean race." Greeks, Italians, Albanians, Spaniards, Portuguese, etc. are Southern Europeans whereas Swedes are Northern Europeans. Despite regional differences, all are of European descent. On the other hand, Persians and Arabs are Caucasians, but neither are white or European, so they are considered Middle Eastern. Contrary to what you think, someone from Athens or Naples probably has a little bit more in common, genetically speaking, with someone from Dublin or Warsaw than with someone from Cairo or Tehran.

Originally Posted by Keenir
I'm going to guess that you don't like Mormons.

I have nothing against Mormons, and I do not see anything indicating dislike, but believe what you want. I only used that example to prove a point. (I actually thought you would use the "Protestant definition" the way some American WASPs might ask if someone is "Christian or Catholic", so anticipating such a move, satirically defined Christianity as exclusively Mormon.) Basically, the Mormons (like the JW) emerged in the 19th century, and many people doubt that either group is Christian. Of course Mormons consider themselves Christian, and I could respect them, but anybody who claims that Joseph Smith founded true Christianity in 19th century America is not liable to earn my respect, and neither is someone who claims that the old churches were not true "Christians" unitl Luther and Calvin came along in the 16th century.

Originally Posted by Keenir
"He who loves and defends his country is therefore a Turk." -Ataturk.

unlike its neighbors, Turkey didn't go for the race=nation definition of the time the nation was founded.

I was going to comment about the irony of using a fascist dictator's statements in a progressive context, but realize this is counterproductive. So according to that definition, a patriotic Michigan man who volunteers for the armed forces is a Turk? After all, he loved and defends his country! On the other hand, if they really want to be progressive and avoid racially or ethnically defining a nation, why not simply do away with the concept of nationality all together? Maybe the Turks should stop pretending to be an ethnic group and just claim that they are a multi-ethnic assortment of Muslims (and some non-Muslims), which they are, who use the Turkish as a lingua franca. Claim that Turkey is the America of Asia Minor (a melting pot). Of course Turkish nationalism would not fit in that scenario. Too bad those pesky Kurds, Armenians, and Pontian Greeks (not to mention Cypriots) and their reactionary concept of ethnic identity stands in the way of this utopian dream...

Originally Posted by Keenir
you've got a strange definition of "Turk".

No I don't. I never said that religion defines it. A Turk need not be Muslim to qualify and could therefore convert to Christianity and still be considered a Turk. By "very very few" I am really stating quite uncommon, not nonexistant!

Originally Posted by Keenir
therefore you can't omit a European nation just because you don't like it.

It is not because I don't like it. It is merely because people would percieve an ethnically distinct people as non-European. By your logic, I must dislike China, Japan, Laos, India, Pakistan, Iran, etc. because I do not consider them European. They are all on the continent of Eurasia though.

Originally Posted by Keenir
really? what ethnicity does Knossos, Sardinia, and Sweden have in common?

The Hellenic people of Knossos, Italic people of Sardinia, and Germanic (Viking) people of Sweden probably have a common ethnic origin dating back to the neolithic. Linguistically, they are all Indo-European. Genetically, Europeans have more in common with eachother on average, than they do with non-Europeans, at least according to Cavalli-Sforza. They also have a common cultural connection. Sardinia and Knossos both were infused with the Greco-Roman culture. Essentially, every single square inch of Europe fell within the sphere of influence of one of two cultures, the Roman and Norse (Viking). Hence where Christianity fits in. Even if in the end most Europeans are atheists (or convert to Islam, Buddhism, whatever) this Christian inheritance had a defining impact on European culture.

Originally Posted by Keenir
references, please?

No reliable source is going to flat out say, "People X were perpetually racist..." But look to the historical record and see for yourself. Even if Turkish racism was typically less exclusive and more assimilationist than your garden variety European racism.

Originally Posted by Keenir
here we go again.

What, you think the Armenian genocide was a hoax? Frankly this is not very surprising coming from an Ataturk apologist...:mad:

Originally Posted by Ian the Admin
Hold it. You basically just accused modern Turkish society of having the potential to be worse than the Nazis on the racism angle - worse than people who threw over 10 million into gas chambers on racial grounds and planned to reshape eastern Europe to be an Aryan-dominated preserve - without substantiation or provocation.

That counts as fairly serious trolling, and that doesn't belong on this board.

Well Ian, I am sorry for trolling, but I do not consider such an accusation way off base. For one thing over one and a half million Armenians were killed between 1915 and 1923, with an original population estimated at just over two million, so about 75% of the Armenian population of the Ottoman Empire was killed. Contrast this with the Holocaust. Of course the Nazis killed six or seven million Jews, but given population differences the larger numbers are not surprising. So, I do not see comparisons of the Young Turks and the Nazis as being particularly out of line. The only difference is that there was no Nuremburg-type event to punish the perpetrators of the genocide. Maybe then the Nazis would not have been so eager to commit atrocities on the scale they did or follow their Aryan fantasies. I find it tragically ironic that comparing the Armenian genocide to the Holocaust is considered trolling, but it is okay for people to defend a fascist thug like Ataturk or deny the Armenian genocide. How is denying the Armenian genocide any better than Holocaust denial?
 
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