Second Battle of El Alamein A Draw

Lets say that the Siebel ferries used on Lake Ladoga in the Summer and Fall of 1942 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naval_Detachment_K are used in the med instead to transport supplies from Greece to North Africa.

Although their capacity is small, they allow the build up of a small reserve of artillery ammunition and fuel, the seibel ferries can unload on the beaches close to the front so transport from Tobruk is not an issue.

And for fun instead of the first use of Tigers at Leningrad in September 1942 where they were not well suited a company of 9 is sent to North Africa where they are ready by the end of October.

All this means that by November 3rd the German are able to hold and the British pause for at least a couple weeks to regroup.

What would this mean going forward, maybe:

a) Rommel's reputation is enhanced.
b) Montgomery's is downgraded.
c) With all reinforcments going to Tunis after November 8th would the Germans be utterly destroyed by the next British assault.
d) Would the prestige of British arms suffer (it would be said that the British couldn't beat the Germans before the Americans were on the ground)
e) Perhaps no Kasserine pass in Ferbuary 1943, would the Americans occupy the Gabes bottleneck.
f) Depending on what happens going forward would Mussolini be in less political trouble.
g) Would a good tactical result for the Tiger change german tank allocation and production any.
 
Lets say that the Siebel ferries used on Lake Ladoga in the Summer and Fall of 1942 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naval_Detachment_K are used in the med instead to transport supplies from Greece to North Africa.
Royal Navy uses 'em as target practise. The End.
And for fun instead of the first use of Tigers at Leningrad in September 1942 where they were not well suited a company of 9 is sent to North Africa where they are ready by the end of October.
Given the completely overwhelming British numerical supperiority, said 9 Tigers make little difference besides possibly driving the deployment of Allied 76mm class AT-guns to be ahigher priority.
 
ANY reduction in army group north's resources in the fall or winter of 1942, leads to the entire army group being destroyed in the second battle of lake ladoga (where the 11th, 16th and 18th) armies conducted a difficult by their fingernails defensive battle... tie that in with the disaster at stalingrad and you could have an implosion of the entire front since there where no reserves (army group center was tied down curbstomping operation mars)
 
And for fun instead of the first use of Tigers at Leningrad in September 1942 where they were not well suited a company of 9 is sent to North Africa where they are ready by the end of October.

g) Would a good tactical result for the Tiger change german tank allocation and production any.

Why the hell are you saying 'for fun'? War is a matter of life and death to the state. At that point of time, the Third Reich had the Eastern Front as it's top priority, considering its scale and the amount of resources devoted to it; Rommel's African theater was merely a sideshow. Therefore, it is obvious as to where the Tigers would go.

But then again, as this is a hypothetical situation, I'll leave things as it is. The nine Tigers may be able to rout the British attack if they are used effectively. One possible way is that two Tiger battlegroups smash through the lines and encircle a large part of the British offensive, screwing the whole thing up.

As for the point on increased production, stories of a lone Tiger holding its own against, say, 12 Shermans before being taken down (or not) may result in that. However, it won't make much of a difference other than a few more Tigers being produced by the war's end.

c) With all reinforcments going to Tunis after November 8th would the Germans be utterly destroyed by the next British assault.

Wouldn't it make more sense to divert at least one or two divisions to where Rommel was now that he had forced the British to a stalemate at El Alamein
 
"Why the hell are you saying 'for fun'?

Sorry for the confusion. The fun is the discussion. Tigers in the Western Desert would have been more effective than where they were actually employed. I agree that it wasn't fun for the millions that died in the various conflicts discussed here.

As far as the Royal Navy sinking these ferries in 1942:

Siebel ferries and MFPs were used effectively later supplying Tunisia and were less vulnerable than the merchant ships (shallow drafts are hard for torpedos to hit) so while a certain percentage would be sunk, much would get through. Later on the allies figured out some proximity exploder for the torpedos (magnetic or acoustic) which made life more difficult for these small craft.
 
"Why the hell are you saying 'for fun'?

Sorry for the confusion. The fun is the discussion. Tigers in the Western Desert would have been more effective than where they were actually employed. I agree that it wasn't fun for the millions that died in the various conflicts discussed here.

As far as the Royal Navy sinking these ferries in 1942:

Siebel ferries and MFPs were used effectively later supplying Tunisia and were less vulnerable than the merchant ships (shallow drafts are hard for torpedos to hit) so while a certain percentage would be sunk, much would get through. Later on the allies figured out some proximity exploder for the torpedos (magnetic or acoustic) which made life more difficult for these small craft.

by the time of the second battle of alamein, the british had unlimited air superiority... where are these ships going to dock... if its tripoli... the docks where allready overcrowded since the port could only handle 45k tons a month... if its bengahzi... same story plus air attacks, and the italian navy categorically refused to send convoys into tobruk or mersah matruh for fear of challanging the royal navy (not to mention the 8 bombings a day those ports enjoyed)
 
In the book "Exit Rommel" it was mentioned that when Rommel visited Hitler at his HQ in September 1942 he promised a bunch of stuff, 40 tiger tanks, barges, nebelwerfers, etc. Never happened. But it may not be so far fetched that it could have.

http://books.google.com/books?id=Hn...&resnum=1&ved=0CBkQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false


They talk about siebel ferries in Tunisia supply service in the book "The war on Rommels supply lines". It might have been easier to deploy them in 1942.:

In addition to merchant vessels, the Axis employed a variety of "Kriegstransporter" (KT boats), "Marinefahrprahm" (MFP, or F-boats), Siebel ferries, and "motozattere". "By January 1943, the Germans had 3 KT ships, 45 MFPs, and 45 Siebel ferries on the Tunisian route.... The ferries were a nuisance to the Allies, but as valuable as they were, there were never more than a fourth of the number needed to supply Tunisia. Even if enough had been built to replace conventional ships, it seems unlikely that they could have been supplied with cargo, berthed, or fueled in the Sicilian ports."
 
I very much doubt all 9 tigers will make it to El Alamein. It is quite possible none of them will. Why? Well

1. First they must get past the Royal Navy operating out of Malta. It''s quite possible a few will end up on the bottom of the Med in the cargo holds of sunk Axis ships

2. They must then be unloaded in ports which were already maxed out

3. Once unloaded they must travel to the battle field. Early Tigers were very unreliable. It is likely that a number will break down en route

4. While we're at it, the RAF has total air superiority at this point. The Tigers will be subjected to intense bombing and strafing as they travel

5. So maybe 5 have made it to the battlefield if the Germans are lucky. These are now prime targets for the aforementioned RAF and will liekly be destroyed by air power.

Also, you have forgotten to take into account simple logistics. The Germans lost El Alamein no because of better tactics or strategy on the part of the British but because of better logistics. Adding 9 Tigers to the mix only increase the number of German tanks that will run out of fuel and have to be abandoned if they aren't destroyed.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. Rommel was a terrible Army commander. He considered logistics to be beneath him when he should have considered it everything
 
I've said it before and I'll say it again. Rommel was a terrible Army commander. He considered logistics to be beneath him when he should have considered it everything

The German general staff didn't even have a word for logistics in WW2. Rommel stood above his peers not apart from them. If you look at the ranks assigned to supply officers in the Heer, you can see they where the redheaded step child

And Rommel shouldn't be blamed for his logistics, he was a guest of the Italians, in their colony, reporting to THEIR supreme commander in North Africa, Marshal Bastico (albiet he circumvented him and went to Hitler as he felt like it)

Rommel exercised ZERO command authority over:
The Regia marina warships assigned to guard the convoys
The merchant ships themselves
The Luftwaffe in terms of providing top cover for the convoys or beating down Malta so that British forces there would stop interfering with his supply lines
The Regia Aeronautic... see luftwaffe
Hitler's decision to committ 90 percent of the German war effort to home defense and Russia (especially trucks, tanks and transport planes)

You have to remember that until the disaster at Gazala Rommel was either a 3 star or 4 star general, consigned to negotiate with field marshals on a regular basis. His supply line only worked so well as Italy could contribute, he wasn't an Italian General, nor a member of the commando supremo... what was he supposed to do... the battle of gazala alone should qualify him as a skilled army commander, to say nothing of his previous accomplishments
 
According to the links these ferries had a maximum range of 350 miles and a top speed of a mere 15 miles per hour so it is by no means certain that they can even reach Rommel from Greece...and doing so leaves them wide open to the Royal Navy, unlike Tunisia where they at least had air cover on both sides for a time. Nor would their capacity to move supplies have done much to help while the need to refuel out of Rommel's own supply base would actually be a liability.



As for the Tigers, 6 went to Tunisia where breaking down on a regular basis and such concerns as finding a bridge that could actually bear the weight meant they had little effect against the less experienced American forces with better terrain and a stronger Luftwaffe presence so 9 will do nothing to turn the tide against Montgomery.

It might, however, hasten British or American production of a gun which can take out the Tiger, which would be very bad for Germany.
 

HJ Tulp

Donor
The German general staff didn't even have a word for logistics in WW2. Rommel stood above his peers not apart from them. If you look at the ranks assigned to supply officers in the Heer, you can see they where the redheaded step child

And Rommel shouldn't be blamed for his logistics, he was a guest of the Italians, in their colony, reporting to THEIR supreme commander in North Africa, Marshal Bastico (albiet he circumvented him and went to Hitler as he felt like it)

Rommel exercised ZERO command authority over:
The Regia marina warships assigned to guard the convoys
The merchant ships themselves
The Luftwaffe in terms of providing top cover for the convoys or beating down Malta so that British forces there would stop interfering with his supply lines
The Regia Aeronautic... see luftwaffe
Hitler's decision to committ 90 percent of the German war effort to home defense and Russia (especially trucks, tanks and transport planes)

You have to remember that until the disaster at Gazala Rommel was either a 3 star or 4 star general, consigned to negotiate with field marshals on a regular basis. His supply line only worked so well as Italy could contribute, he wasn't an Italian General, nor a member of the commando supremo... what was he supposed to do... the battle of gazala alone should qualify him as a skilled army commander, to say nothing of his previous accomplishments

Rommel wasn't responsible for the supply-lines, so what? He was responsible for overextending and exhausting them. It's like Gamelin blaming the fall of France on the government because they didn't provide him with a thousand divisions.
 
Rommel wasn't responsible for the supply-lines, so what? He was responsible for overextending and exhausting them. It's like Gamelin blaming the fall of France on the government because they didn't provide him with a thousand divisions.

Overextending his forces?... there are NO defensive positions in most of Libya and Egypt... to sit still is to invite encirclement (gazalla more than proved this)... by his advancing into Egypt he captured RAF forward airfields that where succoring Malta, so his being farther forward eased the strain of bringing the supplies to africa in the first place

From 1942 he was outnumbered 2 to 1 (Gamelin certainly wasn't) and he was out numbered usually 3 or 5 to 1 in armor and guns (which doesn't tell the story of quality either, because the grants and shermans being sent to the 8th army where superior in every way to every panzer 4 until the f2 which didn't come to africa until after he had lost the initiative, and even then he only ever got 30 of them. He was only a combat commander constrained to operate with what Hitler was willing to not send to Russia (two armored divisions and 1 mixed division that never had strength above brigade level). Rommel frequently put in additional requests for more trucks and transport aircraft to reduce his logistical nightmare, but with the immense war in Russia and the needs of home defense it was never going to happen.

Given the tremendous odds at which he was constrained to fight, it was extremely impressive that he held on as long as he did. Outside of his dash to the wire, and the messy first couple of assaults on Tobruk you would be hard pressed to find a battle where he didn't handle himself with competence and skill
 
In Kesslering's memoirs he talks about using light craft to supplement supplies in the fall 1942 time frame (link below). They didn't have as many as they wanted then.

So using the light craft that were ineffective on Lake Ladoga in the Med in 1942. I suppose they might have to use some to stockpile some fuel in Rhodes or Eastern Crete and have a stop over point there (kind of like they had to do Sicily to Tunisia later). Using Bardia, Sollum, Matruah in to dock in North Africa (They used Sfax in Tunisia so probably not too unreasonable to use small ports).

http://books.google.com/books?id=si...&resnum=4&ved=0CB8Q6AEwAw#v=onepage&q&f=false
 
As far as Tigers in Egypt forcing the Allies to do something about their own tanks? No. The US would ramp up the 76mm Sherman. Detroit and the officer in charge of the US Armor Replacement Command? "The war will be won or lost with the M4":( Retooling from the M4 to the M26 Pershing would have cut Detroit's profits by two-thirds, at least for a time. Next to the B-26 Widowmaker and the Mark 14 torpedo, it's the worst case of deliberate sabotage in the US war effort done in the name of war profits. But at least the B-26 was fixed (thanks to Senator Harry S. Truman) and the mark 14 replaced.
Maybe the British could ramp up the Firefly?
 
As far as Tigers in Egypt forcing the Allies to do something about their own tanks? No. The US would ramp up the 76mm Sherman. Detroit and the officer in charge of the US Armor Replacement Command? "The war will be won or lost with the M4":( Retooling from the M4 to the M26 Pershing would have cut Detroit's profits by two-thirds, at least for a time. Next to the B-26 Widowmaker and the Mark 14 torpedo, it's the worst case of deliberate sabotage in the US war effort done in the name of war profits. But at least the B-26 was fixed (thanks to Senator Harry S. Truman) and the mark 14 replaced.
Maybe the British could ramp up the Firefly?

I don't see why they would have to or want to... the Sherman firefly is heavier, and requires expensive work to tool up (shoehorning the gun sideways and rearranging the turret layout)

Tigers and Panthers where plenty vulnerable to a 500 pound bomb dropped on their head, and the desert airforce had overwhelming superiority by the tame of the second battle alamein
The Germans by doctrine didn't want their tanks to engage other tanks anyway (although the tiger seems to have been built forgetting this) plus there wheren't that many of them... why go with a whole new design when you have thousands of aircraft on hand that can smother any german armored battle group that shows itself ESPECIALLY in the desert where the German tanks have no cover and nowhere to hide
 
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