Seceding From Secession

brokenrobot00 · Feb 22, 2017

If the Union got an earlier start during the American Civil War and had enough troops on the borders with the CSA, how many potential new states could be created in the way that West Virginia came into being?

Or alternatively is it at all possible that vindictive Union States might be granted territorial adjustments at the expense of the defeated South after a prolonged Civil War? Just how many potential states and enlarged states might be found on the map after a situation like this?

Skallagrim · Feb 22, 2017

It doesn't really make sens to carve out a lot of new states. Only where particular areas of a state were clearly pro-Union but the rest of the state was clearly pro-Confederacy was it sensible to split the pro-Union parts off. West Virginia was such an area. The other obvious example is, of course, Nickajack. So I suppose in the scenario outlined, the US forces would cross the border, occupy Tennessee, and split off Nickajack from Tennessee (and Alabama, in the south). In other places, splitting states up made no sense, since they were either majority pro-Union (so splitting would create new, albeit small, Confederate states) or majority pro-Confederacy and without a clear pro-Union area that could be lopped off.

Mackus · Feb 22, 2017

I presume, that rather than split of states into pieces, Unionists would just set up state legislature/governors in exile, a "legitimate" authority, as opposed to "rebel" ones who would be argued to have forsaken their offices by aligning with CSA.

brokenrobot00 · Feb 23, 2017

I had no idea there was a proper name in Nickajack. Interesting history in the link too. In the past I'd always heard a potential state in that area referred to as Eastern Tennessee. From doing a little investigation I saw potential states coming out of Western North Carolina (Would that make it West Carolina?), the Ozark region of Arkansas, West Texas, North Georgia, North Alabama and the Rio Grande. I suppose Eastern Tennessee, Western North Carolina, North Georgia, and North Alabama into one state even a little larger than Nickajack.

unprincipled peter · Feb 23, 2017

I would think that an earlier North start makes the southern states think twice or be much quicker to toss in the towel and secede from the south to rejoin the North. Since the north never recognized the right of sucession, it might make for some interesting negotiations for re-integration.

Blackfox5 · Feb 23, 2017

The US only carved out West Virginia because they had control of that area (heavily Unionist) from the beginning of the war, and it was obvious that the rest of Virginia would not be brought under control for the time being. The people there had also long been in opposition to the rest of the state politically, so crafting a new state was a reward for their loyalty. In fact, it was the western Virginians who first seceded from the state in 1861. Eventually this was recognized - it was not imposed by the Federal government. In contrast, the US just made Andrew Johnson military governor of Tennessee because the US occupied most of the state, but the one part they didn't have was the heavily Unionist eastern part of the state!

The experience with West Virginia was fairly unique. It is not really capable of being duplicated. Only in a situation where the Civil War ends with the US occupying some of the South and keeping it, leaving various states torn in two would there be some kind of move to reorganize the rumps states still held into a viable political unit.

Arkenfolm · Feb 27, 2017

Blackfox5 said:
The US only carved out West Virginia because they had control of that area (heavily Unionist) from the beginning of the war, and it was obvious that the rest of Virginia would not be brought under control for the time being. The people there had also long been in opposition to the rest of the state politically, so crafting a new state was a reward for their loyalty. In fact, it was the western Virginians who first seceded from the state in 1861. Eventually this was recognized - it was not imposed by the Federal government. In contrast, the US just made Andrew Johnson military governor of Tennessee because the US occupied most of the state, but the one part they didn't have was the heavily Unionist eastern part of the state!

The experience with West Virginia was fairly unique. It is not really capable of being duplicated. Only in a situation where the Civil War ends with the US occupying some of the South and keeping it, leaving various states torn in two would there be some kind of move to reorganize the rumps states still held into a viable political unit.

I don't think it's that impossible that the US couldn't do the same in East Tennessee as done in West Virginia. Defend the East Tennessee Convention, let it form a new state (Franklin?) and enforce it against local opposition and of course the CSA as a whole.

Probably the best success the CSA had in Tennessee was keeping the state as one unit despite East Tennessee's general opposition to it. So how do you stop that success and let East Tennessee go it's own way?

Alstein · Feb 27, 2017

could the Eastern Tennessee folk join with Southwestern VA and Western NC folks into one rebel state? Maybe end up with something that spans from Knoxville to Greensboro with a lot of mountain in between?