Searching for a good POD

[pompejus]

I need your help. I have an idea for a story (or actually 2 stories) in an alternate world, but I have no idea how to get that world. Therefore I ask for your help how to get it.

The basic idea is for an world war 1 like conflict in the early 20th century (possibly including airships, what is an alternate history without airships) in which the Netherlands is involved.
This Netherlands consist basicly out of the Netherlands, Belgium and Luxembourg. It has basicly the borders of OTL Benelux, but also East-Frisia. (The borders don't have to be exact borders). This could still be accomplished around the treaty of Vienna and a failed Belgium revolution, but there is more.
I would like this country to be a republic and it must have made the various political improvements the Batavian republic made (like religious freedom, a centralised gouvernment etc). It should be a (limited) democracy around 1900. Limited as only the upper class and middle class is allowed to vote (like otl).

But I also want them to still control various Dutch colonies. Guyana, Malaysia and the cape colony should still be Dutch. Preferably also Ceylon. This I find hard to accomplish and have no good idea for it.

Germany consists out of Prussia, which has conquered most of it, Bavaria in the south and Austria. Austria includes Slovenia, Bohemia and Moravia. Hungary is independent and has as ruler a Hapsburg relative of the ruler of Austria.
The premise of the war is this: Austria and Prussia decide they want to devide Bavaria and attack it. France who is allied to Bavaria declares war to Prussia and Austria. Prussia decide to attack France through the Netherlands, which also gives them the oppertunity to annex Luxembourg and East Frisia.

Does anyone know a good POD around the end of the 18th century or the beginning of the 19th century for this scenario?

 

[Philip]

Your best bet is to have the United Provinces be much more important to the Coalitions during the Napoleonic Wars. Perhaps then the Congress of Vienna will restore the Dutch colonies. After that, you need to prevent the Belgian Revolution. All in all, it seems unlikely.

 

[pompejus]

Your best bet is to have the United Provinces be much more important to the Coalitions during the Napoleonic Wars. Perhaps then the Congress of Vienna will restore the Dutch colonies. After that, you need to prevent the Belgian Revolution. All in all, it seems unlikely.

My idea is to prevent the Belgian revolution by making it (or better let it stay) a republic, another idea would be a general liberal revolution at the same time as the Belgian revolution. This would remove most opposition the Belgians had against the Dutch government (or better, the Dutch king).
My problem is that I need to find a way that the British don't nick the Dutch colonies.

 

[Philip]

My problem is that I need to find a way that the British don't nick the Dutch colonies.

Hard to see this happening. The British are going to 'protect' the Dutch colonies as soon as France invades the United Provinces. Better to look for a way to have the Congress of Vienna restore the colonies to the Dutch.

 

[pompejus]

Hard to see this happening. The British are going to 'protect' the Dutch colonies as soon as France invades the United Provinces. Better to look for a way to have the Congress of Vienna restore the colonies to the Dutch.

That is basicly the same thing.
Maybe a no-Napoleon timeline where the Batavian republic decides later in the war against republican France to switch sides?

 

[pompejus]

I'll bump this in the hope I get some more reactions.

 

[DuQuense]

?Does it have to be a Republic?
1807-
Napoleon appoints brother- Louis- King of Spain. Joseph remains in Naples.
1809-
Napoleon appoints Bernadette King of Holland/UP --OTL Became King of Sweden. Holland includes Frisia.

1814 -
As Napoleon is losing Bernadette changes sides, [He did in Sweden,He could here].

1815
Congress of Vienna, confirms Bernadette as King of Holland/UP, Restores overseas processions as reward for switching sides.

1815~1915-
Dutch Parliment gains power, the same as Parliament in Britain Did.
By 1915, The Dutch Upper House is powerless, and the King is reduced to a ceremonial position.

 

[pompejus]

?Does it have to be a Republic?

No, but I like a Dutch republic as it is a good way to point out the differences between OTL and ATL

1807-
Napoleon appoints brother- Louis- King of Spain. Joseph remains in Naples.
1809-
Napoleon appoints Bernadette King of Holland/UP --OTL Became King of Sweden. Holland includes Frisia.

1814 -
As Napoleon is losing Bernadette changes sides, [He did in Sweden,He could here].

1815
Congress of Vienna, confirms Bernadette as King of Holland/UP, Restores overseas processions as reward for switching sides.

1815~1915-
Dutch Parliment gains power, the same as Parliament in Britain Did.
By 1915, The Dutch Upper House is powerless, and the King is reduced to a ceremonial position.

That could work. Having Bernadette as king of a united Netherlands would also remove possible tentions between the Belgians and Dutch, because he wouldn't have a bias towards the Dutch as William I had.

 

[JP_Morgan]

I don't see there being a real republic, either. Powerful Countries in Europe at that time weren't really into taking other newly independent states like the United Provinces under their protection without some hereditary ruler fbeing appointed. Greece is a good example, as they got a king shortly after they became independent from the Ottoman Empire

 

[pompejus]

Bump

?Does it have to be a Republic?
1807-
Napoleon appoints brother- Louis- King of Spain. Joseph remains in Naples.
1809-
Napoleon appoints Bernadette King of Holland/UP --OTL Became King of Sweden. Holland includes Frisia.

1814 -
As Napoleon is losing Bernadette changes sides, [He did in Sweden,He could here].

1815
Congress of Vienna, confirms Bernadette as King of Holland/UP, Restores overseas processions as reward for switching sides.

1815~1915-
Dutch Parliment gains power, the same as Parliament in Britain Did.
By 1915, The Dutch Upper House is powerless, and the King is reduced to a ceremonial position.

After thinking about it I kind of like this idea. I was just wondering if it would be reasonable to change it slightly. Would it be possible for Louis Napoleon to switch sides? My basic idea was that after the failed invasion at Walcheren and when Napoleon annexes Holland below the rhine, Louis Napoleon remains king of Holland, but decides to betray his brother and starts cooperating with the English. As a reward he remains king of Holland when Napoleon is defeated, Belgium is added to Holland (which is renamed the Netherlands) and most colonies are restored. Around the 1840's his son is king of the Netherlands, because he is too French for the Dutch he is impopulair and during the riots he is deposed and the Netherlands becomes a republic again.
I have no idea how viable this is. If the possibility for Louis Napoleon to betray his own brother or the possibility for England, Russia etc to let a Napoleon remain king is too low, I can change it into Bernadotte anway. I just like it to be Louis Napoleon, because he was such an important figure in Dutch history.

 

[Codae]

Bump


After thinking about it I kind of like this idea. I was just wondering if it would be reasonable to change it slightly. Would it be possible for Louis Napoleon to switch sides? My basic idea was that after the failed invasion at Walcheren and when Napoleon annexes Holland below the rhine, Louis Napoleon remains king of Holland, but decides to betray his brother and starts cooperating with the English. As a reward he remains king of Holland when Napoleon is defeated, Belgium is added to Holland (which is renamed the Netherlands) and most colonies are restored. Around the 1840's his son is king of the Netherlands, because he is too French for the Dutch he is impopulair and during the riots he is deposed and the Netherlands becomes a republic again.
I have no idea how viable this is. If the possibility for Louis Napoleon to betray his own brother or the possibility for England, Russia etc to let a Napoleon remain king is too low, I can change it into Bernadotte anway. I just like it to be Louis Napoleon, because he was such an important figure in Dutch history.

That would be Louis Bonaparte.

 

[Count Dearborn]

You could have William of Orange become king of a United Netherlands & England.

 

[pompejus]

That would be Louis Bonaparte.

His full name (according to wikipedia) is Louis Napoleon Bonaparte. In Dutch he is generally known as Lodewijk Napoleon (Lodewijk is Dutch for Louis). I assumed that he was known in English as Louis Napoleon*. Looking at the English version of his wikipedia page and the fact that you corrected me, I now assume I was wrong in this assumption.
My plan is that after the treaty of Vienna, when Louis Napoleon Bonaparte is made king of the Netherlands, he will drop the names Napoleon and Bonaparte and becomes known as Lodewijk I of the Netherlands.


Anyway, no comments about my scenario?




*What is the English version of Louis?

 

[pompejus]

You could have William of Orange become king of a United Netherlands & England.

Which William of Orange? there were 8 and soon there probably will be a 9th. There was only one who had any chance of becoming king of the Netherlands and England and that was William III, who was king of England. But he lived long before the time I want my POD. Also a united kingdom of England and the Netherlands is not what I want. I wanted to start a Dutch (centered) timeline. If you start an Anglo-Dutch timeline, the English part of the timeline would soon become the most important part. Also Flocc did a better job creating an Anglo-Dutch timeline than I ever will be able to.

 

[SRT]

*What is the English version of Louis?

You're lookin' at it: It's the same as the French. Although there's also Lewis... Both are used (though sometimes pronounced differently. Oh man my native language is insane).

It's cool to have a Dutch-centered timeline, but I'm worried that this'll be Dutchwank. Basically, what reason does Britain have to give them back their colonies after the Napoleonic Wars?

 

[pompejus]

It's cool to have a Dutch-centered timeline, but I'm worried that this'll be Dutchwank.

I do not plan it to become a Dutchwank. Actually I don't think it will be a Dutch wank with just South Africa and western Guyana (and maybe Ceylon) returned to the Netherlands. There will be no Dutch Australia, New Zealand, America, India or Germany. The best case scenario will be a Dutch Netherlands, Belgium, Luxembourg, (French Flanders), East Frisia, Which will have as colonies Aruba, Netherlands Antilles, Surinam, British Guyana up to the Essequibo, South Africa without the north-East, Indonesia, Malaysia and Ceylon. So there will not even be a Dutch Congo (that will probably be French).

Basically, what reason does Britain have to give them back their colonies after the Napoleonic Wars?

And that is the biggest problem I have. Britain did return most colonies after the Napooleonic wars. They returned Surinam, the Dutch west Indies, the Dutch east Indies, the Dutch trading posts in Ghana, the Dutch trading posts in India and the Dutch trading posts in Malaysia. They only kept South Africa, western Guyana and Ceylon.
I need to come up with a reason for them to return them too. There are two ideas I had. One was The British keep the Indian and Ghanese trading posts instead of South Africa, western Guyana and Ceylon. But I like the idea of a Dutch deal with England later to trade the Indian and Ghanese trading posts for British trading posts in Malysia and Sumatra.
My second idea was that the Netherlands decide to aid the British during the Napoleonic wars. As a reward the Dutch regain all their colonies and they can form a (re)union with the southern Netherlands. I hope to do this with Lodewijk Napoleon who betrays his brother, or else with Bernadotte like DuQuense suggested. I favour Lodewijk Napoleon, because of his importance in OTL Dutch history.
A third option is a completely different POD which is why i started this thread in the first place.

 

[Grey Wolf]

The idea of Louis remaining king seems a good one to me - the reason Napoleon removed him anyway was because he seemed to be going too native. He also has a ready-made heir.

If you could combine it with a successful British landing, or some such thing (sorry I'm thinking on my feet here) then he could be able to hold off his brother and both stengthen his rule and legitimise himself vis-a-vis the British

Best regards
Grey Wolf

 

[Grey Wolf]

Regarding getting colonies back, I think the Cape may be the most difficult.

If the war ends earlier, and with Louis' Holland on Britain's side it probably will, then Britain's position in India is probably less secure than it was in OTL by Vienna, so Britain may well focus on the mainland there instead of Ceylon

Best Regards
Grey Wolf

 

[Rex Britanniae]

This control of Frisia would certainly provoke Otto von Bismarck to try and defeat the Netherlands to gain a German territory. IF you wish for a way to get the Netherlands into World War I, make them lose that war and there you go.

 

[pompejus]

Regarding getting colonies back, I think the Cape may be the most difficult.

I am not too sure about that. Did you know that the British restored the capecolony to the Dutch from 1803-1806? It seems to me that if the British returned it to the Dutch then, they could return it later. Maybe after a deal with koning Lodewijk that the British were allowed to use the cape colony as a refill station. Later the British would decide that they wanted their only colony and create one in Natal or Madagaskar.

If the war ends earlier, and with Louis' Holland on Britain's side it probably will, then Britain's position in India is probably less secure than it was in OTL by Vienna, so Britain may well focus on the mainland there instead of Ceylon

Personaly I consider Ceylon the hardest colony to restore. The British had a large interrest in India and Ceylon is so close they might consider it part of India. I am considering that the British keep Ceylon after the Napolenic wars as compensation, although I hope finding a way for them to return it to the Dutch.