Sea Lion Delenda Est

As a man who looks up to the Whermacht for their military prowess and courage, I will be the first to say that Sealion was impossible without some serious British fuckups. But what mystifies me is why so many people focus on the landing being impossible, which I disagree with. IF the Luftwaffe gained total air superiority, a big if, then a landing is plausible, and even not getting chocked off by the RN is possible (somewhat). The real problem lies in what to do once the Germans are on the island. The landings will take heavy losses, and the Home Guard will make a fast advance impossible. Every house will be a strong point, every village a fortress. Despite the low quality of these troops, there is a heck of a lot of them. Add to that the intact British defensive lines inland, and the Germans will have a hell of a time doing anything. The best possible result is a stalemate on the Thames, that's it.
 
As we are seeing in current events, once someone has decided on reality there is very little one can do to dislodge them.

OP, you are probably better off educating yourself further on Sealion's implausibility than trying to explain to those groups about how it couldn't work.

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In Wolfenstein: The New Order they apparently launch Sealion by landing in Scotland.
 
But what mystifies me is why so many people focus on the landing being impossible, which I disagree with. IF the Luftwaffe gained total air superiority, a big if, then a landing is plausible, and even not getting chocked off by the RN is possible (somewhat).
You're still forgetting that the plan was to send troops across on un-powered river barges.
 
How many men could the Germans send across if they limit themselves to ships that can actually cross the Channel? It could at least provide a fresh new way to fail if their armies are undersized and under-equipped instead of underwater.
 
But what mystifies me is why so many people focus on the landing being impossible, which I disagree with.
It is theoretically possible that a gamma ray burst will annihilate the Earth tomorrow. That doesn’t mean you should worry about it. Landing some troops is *possible*. But that doesn’t translate into anything substantial. It was mathematically impossible to supply those troops, and that’s assuming the RN doesn’t wipe out the “transports” with ease.
even not getting chocked off by the RN is possible (somewhat).
No it isn’t. The Germans do not have the sealift capacity to supply those forces, nor do they have the PORT capacity, even IF those ports are intact.
 
It is theoretically possible that a gamma ray burst will annihilate the Earth tomorrow. That doesn’t mean you should worry about it. Landing some troops is *possible*. But that doesn’t translate into anything substantial. It was mathematically impossible to supply those troops, and that’s assuming the RN doesn’t wipe out the “transports” with ease.

No it isn’t. The Germans do not have the sealift capacity to supply those forces, nor do they have the PORT capacity, even IF those ports are intact.

I am afraid I was not clear. The invasion is only feasable with Major British fuckups at all levels, and is in no way realistic or plausible. But, if everything went literally perfect to the t, then it could be done.
 
ANother part is the fact that anyone getting in range of the coast of the UK is going to be under fire. This is from everything from a 2" mortar to 15" railway guns and if you read some sources even an 18" gun left over from WWI that fires proof rounds for armor. All of these would be able to preregister their fire not on grid squares, not on 100 yard squares not on 10 yard squares but mere feet in some cases. The firing positions would be known way ahead of time and the firing problem would just be, left/right so much, elevation so much, pick a round and its on the way and then adjustments would be really easy. If the barges get close enough, even a near miss from a 9.2 and up is going to ruin their day.
 
ANother part is the fact that anyone getting in range of the coast of the UK is going to be under fire. This is from everything from a 2" mortar to 15" railway guns and if you read some sources even an 18" gun left over from WWI that fires proof rounds for armor. All of these would be able to preregister their fire not on grid squares, not on 100 yard squares not on 10 yard squares but mere feet in some cases. The firing positions would be known way ahead of time and the firing problem would just be, left/right so much, elevation so much, pick a round and its on the way and then adjustments would be really easy. If the barges get close enough, even a near miss from a 9.2 and up is going to ruin their day.
IF the 18" gun is real, rather than an amusing myth, how far has a barge have to be from its bursting point to avoid being swamped by the waves? Or alternatively, how many can it take out with every shell?

Were there any 15" railway or coat guns? I thought 9.2" was the largest calibre available in 1940.
 
IF the 18" gun is real, rather than an amusing myth, how far has a barge have to be from its bursting point to avoid being swamped by the waves? Or alternatively, how many can it take out with every shell?

Were there any 15" railway or coat guns? I thought 9.2" was the largest calibre available in 1940.

Clem and Jane were 2 coastal guns in Kent in 1940.
 
Again we get someone asking for information and it starts to drift towards another discussion of how sealion might be possible. How about unless someone who thinks its possible actually offers something novel we just let this thread die as the OP has been directed to the glossary?
 
and even not getting chocked off by the RN is possible (somewhat).
It is when the German Navy is outnumbered 10 to 1 and it would take them 3 days to get the invasion convoy across the channel. Even in the unlikely event that the Luftwaffe can clear the sky of the RAF, they can't stop the RN at night.
 
But, if everything went literally perfect to the t, then it could be done.
No I understood. My answer was that this was incorrect as well. See, in order to operate in combat a German infantry division needed between 300 and 1100 tons of supplies per day. The invasion was supposed to consist of 10 divisions. Now the ports in the region of the landing, Folkstone and Dover had a combined capacity, assuming they were MOSTLY FUNCTIONAL of 1400 tons of supplies per day. That means they can supply somewhere between 1 and 4 infantry divisions through those ports. And that's it. That is the German supply capacity, other than whatever miniscule amounts they can move through the beaches. But without mulberry harbors and having to do EVERYTHING by horse or man that is not going to be much. And those supplies have to be moved forward. Without rail or even trucks.

Now why is this important? Because like I said, the invasion was going to be 10 divisions. Meaning that they will need somewhere between 3,000 and 11,000 tons of supplies per day. Both ports will supply less than 40% even on the low end. Soldiers who can't be supplied don't eat, don't fight, and certainly don't win. The invasion force will strangle. And this is WITHOUT the RN annihilating their "transports", without RAF raids, etc.

This is also without examining the German capacity to actually resupply their forces which was...how should I put this...nonexistent. Yeah, nonexistent works.

This is what I mean when I say its mathematically impossible. The numbers just aren't there to allow for success.
 
IF the 18" gun is real, rather than an amusing myth, how far has a barge have to be from its bursting point to avoid being swamped by the waves? Or alternatively, how many can it take out with every shell?

Were there any 15" railway or coat guns? I thought 9.2" was the largest calibre available in 1940.

18" Howitzers:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BL_18-inch_railway_howitzer15

15" Guns "Clem" and "Jane":

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BL_15-inch_Mk_I_naval_gun
 
Now the ports in the region of the landing, Folkstone and Dover had a combined capacity, assuming they were MOSTLY FUNCTIONAL of 1400 tons of supplies per day. That means they can supply somewhere between 1 and 4 infantry divisions through those ports. And that's it. That is the German supply capacity, other than whatever miniscule amounts they can move through the beaches. But without mulberry harbors and having to do EVERYTHING by horse or man that is not going to be much. And those supplies have to be moved forward. Without rail or even trucks.
And this is assuming the British hadn't leveled or taken anything of worth in coastal cities (which you're getting at with MOSTLY FUNCTIONAL). And not even mentioning soldier and civilian alike will make Jerry bleed for every inch they take.

I think when this was wargamed in the '70s the British and German referees - actual commanders from the war - handicapped the British to the point of losing air superiority and the Royal Navy playing with itself for a few days and then going "oh, wait, the whole reason I exist is happening) and the Germans STILL lost horribly.
 
A good proportion of the river barges had non-german crew, so communication difficulties between towed and towing crew would be problematic

Can you source this please? The only place I've ever seen this claim is on this site & never supported. Requisitioning foreign barges does not mean using foreign crew.
 
We're about due for a: 'Sea Lion would have succeeded if carried out under the cover of autumn fog and landing on Anglesey to wrong-foot the defence completely!'
At any rate, the latest 100+ page Sea Lion thread has now been launched...
 
We're about due for a: 'Sea Lion would have succeeded if carried out under the cover of autumn fog and landing on Anglesey to wrong-foot the defence completely!'
At any rate, the latest 100+ page Sea Lion thread has now been launched...
x'Dx'Dx'D

My favourite idea, from the "total insanity list" is using Wight as base for artillery & as supply base. First time I saw this I thought someone was joking...
 
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