Se Deus quiser, há-de brilhar! - Uma História do Império Português (Updated 01/21)

I think for TTL the majority of the Catholics in Portuguese Luzon would most likely be in the denser areas (in light yellow) from the dense dots in Ilocos Norte to Batangas, while the rural, spare areas (in dark) would remain Pagan/Hindu. By the time the Portuguese establish relations with Oda Japan, Japanese Catholic communities would eventually form in major cities like Tondo, Binalatongan and Batangas and would eventually contribute to the spread of Catholicism there and eventually dominate Luzon's economy instead of the overseas Chinese population, which would be eventually restricted to Visayas.
Thats your timeline, you can write whatever you want.

But the Portuguese did not even bother to mass convert East Timor ITTL.
 
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The next chapter will focus on the political changes with João II living longer TTL.

From the planning thread, while Manuel I was a good king for Portugal OTL, and reaching the empire at its extent, he did it as the expense of the nobles and the clergy regaining power (for example, pardoning the Braganças and restoring their estates), ignoring with power struggles, and perhaps indulging with the court too much with the money coming from the trade.

With Infante Afonso's death being butterflied and having a healthy son with Catherine of York (I'll name him Infante Duarte), these two successors to João II will have more humility and contribute more to developing Portugal more than OTL. With the expulsion of the Jews and free Muslims being butterflied and keeping the nobles like the Braganças in check, they will have time to bring in the ideas of the Renaissance and move towards a more capitalistic mindset, like the formation of insurances, the creation of an early stock market and taking in Byzantine refugees and small numbers of migrants from Italy, for example.
Interesting ideas. Don't let us waiting.:)
 
I wonder, could much more developed Portugal have also much higher population density? England today has 430 per sq kilometer. Portugal 110. With Leon and Galicia even less, about 100.
With even a moderate increase of say 120 or 130 people per km2 ( so not 430 like in England- they had a lot more of coal and iron ), that's the difference between Portugal with population of 26 mil. and 31 mil. or 34 mil.
 
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I think for TTL the majority of the Catholics in Portuguese Luzon would most likely be in the denser areas (in light yellow) from the dense dots in Ilocos Norte to Batangas, while the rural, spare areas (in dark) would remain Pagan/Hindu. By the time the Portuguese establish relations with Oda Japan, Japanese Catholic communities would eventually form in major cities like Tondo, Binalatongan and Batangas and would eventually contribute to the spread of Catholicism there and eventually dominate Luzon's economy instead of the overseas Chinese population, which would be eventually restricted to Visayas.
Some of the Pagan Ethnic groups in Northern Luzon could dominate instead of Ilocano likely Sinauna of Tondo and Gaddang/Irraya of the upper Cagayan rivershed or a mix of these two...I think Northern Luzon will be 60-40 Pagan-Christian ratio while the south is predominantly christian.

Ilocanos primarily benefited from the famines in the 18th and 19th centuries, here it does not even happen aka butterflied.
 
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The issue with Japan was that Portuguese Catholicism became greater than imperialism. So that Catholicism became a threat to the ruling Japanese class control of the people. Which led to the persecution of Catholics in japan. All catholic priests were hunted and killed and all Catholics attacks. Forcing the remaining ones to practice their religion in secret for decades.

This was a problem with Portuguese imperialism in all of India and Ásia. The colonial authorities and religious authorities were in many ways indistinguishable. Especially with the Sdvdnt of inquisition.

if inquisition is never integrated then Catholics could live alongside other religions within the Portuguese colonies.

At times spreading religion was more important than maintaining control or expanding the empire. When religious figures have greater influence over the administration of the colonies then you stop having political control over the colonies.

this was an issue in many other parts of the country even in metropolitan Portugal. Where the priest was regarded as more important and had greater control over a region than the appointed administrator. This resulted in priests fighting the implementation of government policy and forcing or influencing nobles and administrative people in spending public $ on religious infrastructure instead of public or economic infrastructure that would advance the colonies, county of areas economy.
The role of the Catholic Church in Japan will be mostly regulated to the Jesuits, who are mostly Portuguese with some Spaniards and Italian and will bring in some Portuguese influence like OTL. The TTL Oda Shogunate will come in the next century and will establish ties with Portugal in the late 16th/early 17th century, but it will be limited to an outpost in Nagasaki for a trade, as well as some Portuguese ships aiding the Oda clan in the later stages of the Sengoku period, but I don't really want to see it as an foreign power grab.

@BBadolato and @IntellectuallyHonestRhino I would like to hear any feedback too on this one, as we have discussed about this a lot in the Japanese Catholicism thread late last year, since I am aiming for a 30% Catholic Japan for this TL.

Interesting ideas. Don't let us waiting.:)
Hopefully I can get the next chapter up and running most likely by next weekend since I am now a full-time student this college semester with four courses (in addition to working full-time) and I have an exam coming up on Thursday.

I wonder, could much more developed Portugal have also much higher population density? England today has 430 per sq kilometer. Portugal 110. With Leon and Galicia even less, about 100.
With even a moderate increase of say 120 or 130 people per km2 ( so not 430 like in England- they had a lot more of coal and iron ), that's the difference between Portugal with population of 26 mil. and 31 mil. or 34 mil.
The total area for TTL Metropolitan Portugal would be around 230,000 km2 (Portugal + Galicia + Leon + Extremadura + Asturias + Huelva Province + Canary Islands). The average density for these areas would amount to 100. An increase of 125 per km2 would increase the population of TTL Portugal in the modern day to around 52 million, even more than the population of Spain OTL. Not sure how this could work out though, maybe around 35 to 40 million would be more feasible.

Some of the Pagan Ethnic groups in Northern Luzon could dominate instead of Ilocano likely Sinauna of Tondo and Gaddang/Irraya of the upper Cagayan rivershed or a mix of these two...I think Northern Luzon will be 60-40 Pagan-Christian ratio while the south is predominantly christian.

Ilocanos primarily benefited from the famines in the 18th and 19th centuries, here it does not even happen aka butterflied.
Fair enough. I think the Cagayan Valley and the Cordillera Region would be predominantly Pagan TTL while the Ilocos, Central Luzon, Calabarzon and Bicol regions would be Christian.

Regarding Luzon, I think either Celudão or Catagalugão (a Portuguese transliteration of Katagalugan) would be the names of the province (Província Portuguesa de Celudão/Catagalugão) since you've mentioned earlier that the name is a misnomer.
 
Regarding Luzon, I think either Celudão or Catagalugão (a Portuguese transliteration of Katagalugan) would be the names of the province (Província Portuguesa de Celudão/Catagalugão) since you've mentioned earlier that the name is a misnomer.
Yep, it is possible
Terrien de Lacouperie’s notes called the Gaddans and Kalingas as Tagala tribes. There are present-day northern Luzon tribes of the same names; but neither tribe calls Tagalog as a native language.
But Katagalugan is more controversial to write, I would write it as Celudao or Selurong.

Tarlac, Zambales, Aurora and Nueva Ecija would remain Predominantly Pagan ITTL as well.
 
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The issue with Japan was that Portuguese Catholicism became greater than imperialism. So that Catholicism became a threat to the ruling Japanese class control of the people. Which led to the persecution of Catholics in japan. All catholic priests were hunted and killed and all Catholics attacks. Forcing the remaining ones to practice their religion in secret for decades.
I think Nobunaga wasn't against portuguese influence or convertion in Japan, a POD there could make Japan open to trade and in the Portuguese sphere of influence, using the Jesuits missions.
 
The total area for TTL Metropolitan Portugal would be around 230,000 km2 (Portugal + Galicia + Leon + Extremadura + Asturias + Huelva Province + Canary Islands). The average density for these areas would amount to 100. An increase of 125 per km2 would increase the population of TTL Portugal in the modern day to around 52 million, even more than the population of Spain OTL. Not sure how this could work out though, maybe around 35 to 40 million would be more feasible.
Shouldn't Portugal also get a larger part of Andalusia, as a reward for assistance to Castille in taking Grenada? Say Seville and Cadiz? Maybe even Gibraltar?

I agree that 40-50 millions is way too much, but maybe 30-35 millions could be possible?
 
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The role of the Catholic Church in Japan will be mostly regulated to the Jesuits, who are mostly Portuguese with some Spaniards and Italian and will bring in some Portuguese influence like OTL. The TTL Oda Shogunate will come in the next century and will establish ties with Portugal in the late 16th/early 17th century, but it will be limited to an outpost in Nagasaki for a trade, as well as some Portuguese ships aiding the Oda clan in the later stages of the Sengoku period, but I don't really want to see it as an foreign power grab.

@BBadolato and @IntellectuallyHonestRhino I would like to hear any feedback too on this one, as we have discussed about this a lot in the Japanese Catholicism thread late last year, since I am aiming for a 30% Catholic Japan for this TL.
I'm going to try and answer this in the best way I possibly can. My knowledge of Japan for this period is largely limited to the later Sengoku era around and after the rise of Oda Nobunaga, so what your trying is playing with some serious fire. Japan by 1475 is in the end stages of the Onin war that saw the power structure of large nobles clan as governors like the Yamana, Hakateyama, and Hosokawa utterly break down as many clan would begin to wage war for their own reasons, and central authority would be nominal. Getting an Oda shogunate of this is going to require a very large butterfly net.

The Oda of Owari started out as vassals of the Shiba clan in Owari Province, and after a period of time the Shiba grew weak, while the Oda grew stronger, after a few periods of division and the eventually fortuitous decline of the Matsudaira clan of Mikawa in the 1540's in the lead up to the battle of Okehazama. Okehazama left the Oda with their biggest threat weakened, and with a buffer to their east, this is where is more luck kicks in. The Oda rose to power in an area their neighbors proved incompetent, weak or divided like the Saito, Rokakku, and Miyoshi, or were situated in areas were they were on the peripheries of notable clans like the Takeda, Uesugi, and Hojo. Even if you somehow get an Oda Shogunate, there is nothing stopping persecutions of Christians, afterall Nobunaga tolerated the Catholics because they were useful, if they became another troublesome mass movement the Ikko Ikki, then they can really suffer for it in some gruesome ways.

Even outside of the Oda, the Catholics might as well have rolled two sets of snake eyes in terms of who they choose as patrons. The Arima of Hirado were weak, the Otomo were not as strong as they seemed, and the Ouchi collapsed due to political infighting resulting in the rebellion of their vassals the Mori. There is also the question what are you going to do about the reformist sentiments of the church, and will be the same low tolerance of unchristian cultural practices that came up even among Jesuits, assuming their are Jesuits. Your making a lot of assumptions how things are playing out when it really might not be the case with checking for butterflies, but this your timeline and you can play God with it however you wish.
 
Shouldn't Portugal also get a larger part of Andalusia, as a reward for assistance to Castille in taking Grenada? Say Seville and Cadiz? Maybe even Gibraltar?

I agree that 40-50 millions is way too much, but maybe 30-35 millions could be possible?
Portugal could either get some border regions is assistance to Castile or if relations with Castile are not good provide Grenada with protection in return Grenada become a vassal of Portugal. Both options are valid. Depends on author.
 
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