Scottish aircraft carriers

67th Tigers

Banned
Ummm, your last link says:

Scottish GDP (GVA) = 78b BPS = 140 USD = (140/2,131) = 6.6% of GDP or 1/15th of the total.

However, this is Gross Value Added, so includes the subsidy from Britain as "national income" (and excludes tax incomes from purchases). This is the kindest measure of Production which will yield the highest result for Scotland.
 
Fletch

Fletch

GVA is not GDP.

UK Gva at basic prices was in 2005 1 086 859 million pounds, see table A2
http://www.statistics.gov.uk/pdfdir/qna0606.pdf
Scottish GVA in 2005 was £78 billion pounds. In 2004 it was 82 Billion Pounds.

It works out that the GVA of Scotland is 7.1% of the UK economy in 2005.
In 2004 it was 7.6% of the UK Economy.
http://www.scottish-enterprise.com/...aboutscotland/about_scotland-keyfacts.htm#top

At no point has it been 5%. As estimates of GDP at market prices are no longer made for the UK regions, I cannot deny what you say, BUT on all figures when they were made(up until 1999) showed the Scottish Economy on average 8-10% of the UK economy, with GDP.
I've no idea how much would be north of 55 degrees (i.e. within Scottish waters in the event of divorce), but it appears the bulk of the oil reserves is south of 55.
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Actually the marine boundary would be disputed in the event of Independence, as it was changed for some reason after the creation of the Scottish Parliament.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_Adjacent_Waters_Boundaries_Order_1999
But I would suspect that a comprimise would happen, should separation happen.
 
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67th Tigers

Banned
GVA is a measure of GDP, including things such as the subsidy paid to Scotland, foreign investment etc. As I say, it's liked by nationalists as it makes Scotlands economy looker larger than it really is.

You want a measure of National Production that excludes such things for any model of independence.

Probably the fairest method is simple GDP, 2.36 billion USD for the whole UK, or 0.14 billion for Scotland
 
Fletch

Fletch

Going by GVA like for like, is £1.086Trillion UK Scotland £78 Billion

Again GDP at market prices is no longer calculated(These were my previous figures). But the above figures are the GVA. Otherwise you are not calculating like for like.
 
Thande

Thande

Donor
Maybe this is the government's strategy, keep all the SNP voters indoors figuring out the army numbers on election day :D
 
Fletch

Fletch

Thande said:
Maybe this is the government's strategy, keep all the SNP voters indoors figuring out the army numbers on election day :D
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True but I'm a Labour Activist. Been researching figures recently for my End of the Union TL.

Sure they want my vote!
 

Wozza

67th Tigers said:
Army:

http://web.archive.org/web/20000614075959/www.siol-nan-gaidheal.com/sdf/siolbase.htm

Navy:

http://web.archive.org/web/20000524222958/www.siol-nan-gaidheal.com/sdf/siolnavy.htm

Air Frce:

http://web.archive.org/web/20000524184405/http://www.siol-nan-gaidheal.com/sdf/siolsaf.htm

Ha!
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This air force seems to be about the same size as the RAf in terms of fast jets.

The lack of training aircraft might cause a few problems in the long-run though...



"This proves my point about the 10-18% of the UK forces."

I don't see how economy/population figures in the 8-10% range prove this at all.
Scotland gets at most 10-12%, which causes such massive losses of economies of scale as to be devastating unless the spectrum of capabilities is reduced dramatically.
Also Scottish units are generally undermanned, a problem that would surely continue.
 

Calgacus

I should think 10% of the UK forces would be adequate, although I'm not sure what legal position there would be for any such division. I can imagine quite a few wrangles over this. I would think that an independent Scotland would need an army of no more than four regular battalions, a few frigates and patrol boats, and an airforce focused on rescue and transport duties. No need for us to have F16s! These independence types are nutjobs who probably sit at home wanking over the nice new uniforms they'll get to design and imagining invading England as part of some Celtic Alliance!

In reality Anglo-Scottish military co-operation would remain pretty solid post-independence, whatever the SNP claim right now. I would be surprised if bases weren't leased to England, possibly as a makeweight in any argument over division of equipment.
 

Calgacus

Leej said:
The Scotish navy in the past was just a attempt at a status symbol with the odd bit of pirate battling.
They did have the first ever galleon iirc but...that's about it.
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I think actually the Scottish navy was pretty serious at one or two points, but relied too much on the passing enthusiasm of one or two kings (James IV and one of the Alexanders IIRC) - in the early 1500s and 1510s a real attempt was made to build a proper navy, and some significant naval victories against English forces were won. Mostly these were battles between pirates given some official status by the monarchs, but there were proper battleships laid down, including as you mentioned, the Great Michael, biggest ship in Europe at the time IIRC. Sadly it was never seriously used, and was sold off after James IV died at Flodden...
 

Calgacus

By the way, did any of those sites actually have the uniform designs? Would it be khaki and the same camo as now? Or something else? I can sense a few model kits winging their way to my house...:D
 

Fellatio Nelson

Calgacus said:
In reality Anglo-Scottish military co-operation would remain pretty solid post-independence, whatever the SNP claim right now. I would be surprised if bases weren't leased to England, possibly as a makeweight in any argument over division of equipment.
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I really couldn't see any independent Scotland maintaining any significant military force, except as an adjunct to/integral part of the British armed forces.

At most, some clearly Scottish regiments - also based in Scotland and nominally funded entirely by Scotland - wouldn't be sent overseas to fight unless the Scottish parliament also granted approval. (Perhaps analogous to the relationship between British and Commonwealth forces during WW2? Separate, but the same, so to speak.)

As to the rest of the Army and the armed forces as a whole, who knows? They're just so interwoven, in history and practice, to be disentangled without very great difficulty. I'd suggest things would just go on as ever before.

Most I could see being created by any independent Scotland would be a coastguard and armed fishery/oil rig protection force.
 

Calgacus

Fellatio Nelson said:
I really couldn't see any independent Scotland maintaining any significant military force, except as an adjunct to/integral part of the British armed forces.

At most, some clearly Scottish regiments - also based in Scotland and nominally funded entirely by Scotland - wouldn't be sent overseas to fight unless the Scottish parliament also granted approval. (Perhaps analogous to the relationship between British and Commonwealth forces during WW2? Separate, but the same, so to speak.)

As to the rest of the Army and the armed forces as a whole, who knows? They're just so interwoven, in history and practice, to be disentangled without very great difficulty. I'd suggest things would just go on as ever before.

Most I could see being created by any independent Scotland would be a coastguard and armed fishery/oil rig protection force.
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I'm not so sure. I mean, obviously it could take some years to detach them, but I can't imagine an independent Scotland would want to be too tied in with Britain militarily (or England-Wales-Northern Ireland).
I should think the Scottish armed forces would eventually work out at something similar to the Irish ones. Having the army still tied in with Britain's raises far too many problems of jurisdiction.
 

Fellatio Nelson

Calgacus said:
I'm not so sure. I mean, obviously it could take some years to detach them, but I can't imagine an independent Scotland would want to be too tied in with Britain militarily (or England-Wales-Northern Ireland).
I should think the Scottish armed forces would eventually work out at something similar to the Irish ones. Having the army still tied in with Britain's raises far too many problems of jurisdiction.
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Depends how the independence came about, I suppose.

In any event, given that I doubt any Scottish armed forces would be much different to those of RepIreland, they'd probably still be an awful lot of Scots who'd prefer to join the British armed forces, at least if they wanted to fly fast jets or serve overseas aboard warships.

Scotland would get more clout on the world stage, and with regard to Anglo-Scottish interests worldwide, if its Army remained closely associated with the British armed forces, albeit separate. That's why I reckon it might follow the pattern of the relationship with the UK and Dominion forces in WW2; national control over the units, but placed under British command, trained with the British and shared the same equipment etc. whenever necessary.

(BTW: did you hear my marvellous Scottish Calgacus-cum-Thande accent? :D )
 

Calgacus

Fellatio Nelson said:
Depends how the independence came about, I suppose.

In any event, given that I doubt any Scottish armed forces would be much different to those of RepIreland, they'd probably still be an awful lot of Scots who'd prefer to join the British armed forces, at least if they wanted to fly fast jets or serve overseas aboard warships.

Scotland would get more clout on the world stage, and with regard to Anglo-Scottish interests worldwide, if its Army remained closely associated with the British armed forces, albeit separate. That's why I reckon it might follow the pattern of the relationship with the UK and Dominion forces in WW2; national control over the units, but placed under British command, trained with the British and shared the same equipment etc. whenever necessary.

(BTW: did you hear my marvellous Scottish Calgacus-cum-Thande accent? :D )
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I just did, but I can't hear it, it's all buggered up. You should post it again.
 

Fellatio Nelson

Calgacus said:
Nah, it's still buggered, but then I don't have speakers, just little ipod earphones, so maybe that's why. The others all worked fine though...
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Hardly surprising, I pitched it at a frequency so only dogs would hear.

If you'd got a dog in your flat, it'd have been howling like crazy when you played it. :D
 
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