Scottish aircraft carriers

Tielhard

Banned
I think you guys lack imagination. The Enlish are not going to let them go whilst there is any great amount of oil in the SNS but what if they become free and independent and THEN someone finds serious exploitable deposites on the Atlantic frontier? Then suppose a good way to extract gas clathrates is found? On top of that they decide to go into the business of flogging hydro and nuclear power to the auld enemy and the French. Then suppose they use these revenues to kick-start high tech industries using English intellectual capital? After 10 years of such a regime we could almost have one Aircraft Carrier for each clan and a spare one for Sundays!
 
Fletch

Fletch

Methinks that everyone is slightly overegging the Scotttish Defence position on independence, should that ever occur.

I feel that the SNP would go for a position somewhere between the position of Ireland and Sweden, and this has been put across by the SNP at official events. Indeed, the SNP have been putting across arguments that state they back defence savings(read cuts).

They did indeed campaign against the disbanding of the Black Watch etc. but this was just to gain votes I suspect, the only party commited to reverding the desicion are the Conservatives, and due to their ineptitued north of the border, they have less than 20% of the Scottish Vote.

Scotland would be entitled to a percentage between 9%(low)based on population and 33%(high)based on territory, I suspect somewhere between the two would be achieved, probably 10-18%.
 
Fletch

Fletch

Landshark said:
Does this clown realise that the Vanguard, Victorious and Vigilant are three quarters of Britain's Nuclear Balistic Missile Submarines?
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Never heard of him or his orignization, and I'm a Scot! He is basically that end of the pier nutter.
 

Floid

Landshark said:
I thought he was a septic.
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I thought Septics only wrote about Ireland and the Irish? :confused:

Anyway, aren't the new CVF carriers being built in Scotland? I seem to recall some fuss over it a couple of years ago because the existing dry docks the Royal Navy use are just too small for the new class of carriers.
 

Tielhard

Banned
I can see King Rab I's fleet sailing down from Orkney to demand reparations from the cowering English for 250 years of occupation:

The flag ship: Culloden

The first class carriers built on Clydeside:

Wallace
Arthur McManus
Bruce
Rob Roy
Salmond
Arthur McManus
Gorgeous George

The second class carriers:

Andrew Caragie (ex. USS Abraham Lincoln)
John Paul Jones (ex. USS Ronald Regan)
Haig (ex. HMS CVF2 brought as part payment for debts)

The hunter/killers:

Sherlock Holmes
Ivanhoe
Peter Pan
Our Wullie

The Destroyers:

Murray
Cameron
Stewart
McLeod
Ranald
Summan's

The frigates:

Sean
Billy
Ferguson
McGonagall
Fat Robbie
Bay City Roller
Old Rod
I. M. Banks
Androgenous Lenox
Grey

Bombardment vessels:

Deacon Brodie
Madeline Smith
Burke
Hare
 
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Fellatio Nelson

Floid said:
I thought Septics only wrote about Ireland and the Irish? :confused:

Anyway, aren't the new CVF carriers being built in Scotland? I seem to recall some fuss over it a couple of years ago because the existing dry docks the Royal Navy use are just too small for the new class of carriers.
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Well, they did, until they watched Braveheart and found that the Scots were oppressed as well. :D

The new carriers are being produced by Thales (French) and BAe (British). In the event of delay/cock-up, they can blame each other. :D

So, lots and lots and lots of taxpayers' money.
 
Fletch

Fletch

Tielhard said:
I think you guys lack imagination. The Enlish are not going to let them go whilst there is any great amount of oil in the SNS but what if they become free and independent and THEN someone finds serious exploitable deposites on the Atlantic frontier? Then suppose a good way to extract gas clathrates is found? On top of that they decide to go into the business of flogging hydro and nuclear power to the auld enemy and the French. Then suppose they use these revenues to kick-start high tech industries using English intellectual capital? After 10 years of such a regime we could almost have one Aircraft Carrier for each clan and a spare one for Sundays!
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there ARE significant deposits of Oil in Scottish Waters in the Atlantic, but they havent been exploited, as I heard.
 

Jason

The first two links I quoted are from the SNP and they do seem to be going for a reasonably large military-I mean they said last year they would maintain 7 frigates; New Zealand and Belgium both only had 4 each in the 80s/90s. In addition the SNP has said it will also operate subs, all new built in Scottish yards. Ok, it's not a large fleet but at the same time not small.

In the late 90s the SNP did openly state it would re-raise infantry regiments disbanded many years earlier and like I say they did go as far as giving details of the proposed squadron strengths for their new air force and even produced uniform designs

I do agree it does seem a bit ambitious, it just always surprised me that an independence movement that was non-violent went into so much detail on military matters. I mean even the Plaid Crymu elements who want independence (within Europe, a phrase I never understood) haven't given much thought on such matters. The only comment I ever came across seemed to imply they expected England to defend them and that in return they would allow England to have Welsh regiments.


FletcherofSaltoun said:
Methinks that everyone is slightly overegging the Scotttish Defence position on independence, should that ever occur.

I feel that the SNP would go for a position somewhere between the position of Ireland and Sweden, and this has been put across by the SNP at official events. Indeed, the SNP have been putting across arguments that state they back defence savings(read cuts).

They did indeed campaign against the disbanding of the Black Watch etc. but this was just to gain votes I suspect, the only party commited to reverding the desicion are the Conservatives, and due to their ineptitued north of the border, they have less than 20% of the Scottish Vote.

Scotland would be entitled to a percentage between 9%(low)based on population and 33%(high)based on territory, I suspect somewhere between the two would be achieved, probably 10-18%.
Click to expand...
 

67th Tigers

Banned
FletcherofSaltoun said:
Scotland would be entitled to a percentage between 9%(low)based on population and 33%(high)based on territory, I suspect somewhere between the two would be achieved, probably 10-18%.
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Entitled to? I didn't know there was a prenup? ;-)

Assuming the shift of the RRS and Scotland, it's difficult to say what equipment they'd have. As the breakaway state everything remains the property of England.

Simply operating the existing RRS as 5 light role battalions is going to consume 1% of the total economy. The overhead on running a soldier is about 100,000 BPS PA. Remember, Scotlands weight is comparitively less than Eires and Scotland only produces about 5% of GDP, and less than 5% (2-3%?) of the central budget.
 

67th Tigers

Banned
The cost of building a frigate is about 100m BPS, and the same again in operating costs over 6 years. So a 7 frigate fleet would cost Scotland about 117m PA or 2.3% of GDP....
 
Fletch

Fletch

67th Tigers said:
Entitled to? I didn't know there was a prenup? ;-)

Assuming the shift of the RRS and Scotland, it's difficult to say what equipment they'd have. As the breakaway state everything remains the property of England.

Simply operating the existing RRS as 5 light role battalions is going to consume 1% of the total economy. The overhead on running a soldier is about 100,000 BPS PA. Remember, Scotlands weight is comparitively less than Eires and Scotland only produces about 5% of GDP, and less than 5% (2-3%?) of the central budget.
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I was going by the formula used when Czechoslovakia split up, which I believe is the fairest comparison, to use Ireland as a comparison is poor, as it was in quite a different age.

Also the figure about Central Budget Contributions excludes Oil and gas Money, not to mention other assets which are not classed as regional assets but which are classed as a UK assets. Not to mention the fact that the UK budget has never been fully separated out, including all factors, which would make separation a very messy, and costly job on both sides.

Also, I would factor in the proportion of MOD staff who are Scots.
 
Fletch

Fletch

67th Tigers said:
Entitled to? I didn't know there was a prenup? ;-)

Assuming the shift of the RRS and Scotland, it's difficult to say what equipment they'd have. As the breakaway state everything remains the property of England.

Simply operating the existing RRS as 5 light role battalions is going to consume 1% of the total economy. The overhead on running a soldier is about 100,000 BPS PA. Remember, Scotlands weight is comparitively less than Eires and Scotland only produces about 5% of GDP, and less than 5% (2-3%?) of the central budget.
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Just found actual figures from 1990s. What you said, short of a Scottish Economic Collapse, was simply wrong.

Scotlands Population as
% of UK population.
92-93 8.8
93-94 8.8
94-95 8.8
95.96 8.8
96-97 8.7
97-98 8.7
98-99 8.6

Scots Tax revenues as %
of UK tax Revenues.
92-93 9.5
93-94 9.4
94-95 9.6
95-96 9.6
96-97 10
97-98 9.7
98-99 9.2

Scots GDP as % of UK GDP
(AT MARKET PRICES)
92-93 9.5
93-94 9.6
94-95 10
95-96 10.1
96-97 10.4
97-98 9.8
98-99 9.1

I have a scanned off copy of my source, but for some reason it went to microsoft word when it scanned, if you can tell me how to get word doc on attachment, I will do, its saved after all.

This proves my point about the 10-18% of the UK forces.
 

67th Tigers

Banned
This includes Scots living in England and English living in Scotland (i.e. the primary workers in the oil and electronics industries) doesn't it?

Scotlands GDP is c. 130 billion USD, compared to the UK as a whole (2.13 Trillion USD) is 2.5 - 3.4% of GDP, depending on how the oil is counted (Oil accounting for 1.4% of UK GDP). I've no idea how much would be north of 55 degrees (i.e. within Scottish waters in the event of divorce), but it appears the bulk of the oil reserves is south of 55.

This had me looking at the SNP website, which seems to miss several vital facts: Currently 5/6th of the price of north sea oil is the price of production. There may can a trillion USD worth in the North Sea (both N and S of 55), but it will cost .83 Trillion (using then English assets) to access it, and the oil companies need to make profits. In fact the profit margin is now so small that companies are considering stopping production. The SNP figures don't add up (but make good copy).

As to your point, it depends how much Scotland could pay for, and how many people it could recruit.
 
Fletch

Fletch

67th Tigers said:
This includes Scots living in England and English living in Scotland (i.e. the primary workers in the oil and electronics industries) doesn't it?

Scotlands GDP is c. 130 billion USD, compared to the UK as a whole (2.13 Trillion USD) is 2.5 - 3.4% of GDP, depending on how the oil is counted (Oil accounting for 1.4% of UK GDP). I've no idea how much would be north of 55 degrees (i.e. within Scottish waters in the event of divorce), but it appears the bulk of the oil reserves is south of 55.

This had me looking at the SNP website, which seems to miss several vital facts: Currently 5/6th of the price of north sea oil is the price of production. There may can a trillion USD worth in the North Sea (both N and S of 55), but it will cost .83 Trillion (using then English assets) to access it, and the oil companies need to make profits. In fact the profit margin is now so small that companies are considering stopping production. The SNP figures don't add up (but make good copy).

As to your point, it depends how much Scotland could pay for, and how many people it could recruit.
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No they are treasury figures from the late 90's. They are for the UK region of Scotland.
 

67th Tigers

Banned
By what measure GDP? GNP? NNP? Production? One of those nebulous figures that creates "virtual money"?

FWIW: The figures I posted are GDP ca. 2005/6. However, all figures are open to massaging, I simply looked up the figures and divided one by the other. Certain groups (i.e. SNP) like to include production by Scots living in England for example, hence my wondering...

The unknown is crossborder trade, currently Scotland exports 17.5 billion USD per annum (something ridiculous like half of this is Whiskey exports) and imports more than this. Trade with England would have to be calculated, which is likely to be negative again.
 
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