Scotland remains Catholic

Fabius Maximus

Let's say that the Scottish Church manages to do a better job of cleaning itself up, so that Protestantism is unable to gain a serious following. A couple of questions:

(1) What impact would this have on England's Catholic population? IOTL there was a comparatively large number of Recusants in the north of England, and presumably having a Catholic country right next door would make it easier for them to hold the line. Would this result in a larger Recusant population, and if so, by how much?

(2) Assuming we spread a butterfly net over the succession issue -- so Elizabeth still dies childless, leaving James as her closest heir -- how would Elizabeth react to the prospect of a Catholic succession? Would she seek to have him excluded from the succession -- and if so, would his being a Catholic be sufficient grounds for doing so, or would she have to find some other pretext (and what might this be)?
 
RedKing

RedKing

Not all that familiar with Scottish history but James V living could help keep Scotland Catholic. Mary I may even look there for a bride if there is one available.
 

isabella

RedKing said:
Mary I may even look there for a bride if there is one available.
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Bride? Maybe groom (or spouse). Still James V himself would be the only one of the required rank and will not be available unless Mary of Guise died shortly before Edward AND you need also Philip II being already remarried.
 
RedKing

RedKing

isabella said:
Bride? Maybe groom (or spouse)
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Yeah, that's my mistake I also end up using the word bride for men and women looking for a spouse for some reason.
isabella said:
Still James V himself would be the only one of the required rank and will not be available unless Mary of Guise died shortly before Edward AND you need also Philip II being already remarried.
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Hmm, I suppose then, my idea is the Mary marries James because he will help her keep England and that he is going to be able to spend a lot more time in England.
 

Fabius Maximus

RedKing said:
Hmm, I suppose then, my idea is the Mary marries James because he will help her keep England and that he is going to be able to spend a lot more time in England.
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Might be a more popular match than the one with Philip as well -- wealth and population mean that England will inevitably end up the senior partner in any union with Scotland, whereas the reverse is true for an Anglo-Spanish union.
 

VVD0D95

Banned
Keep james V alive, his death meant there was another chaotic regency. In the regency the Protestants thrived. Without it, they won’t be able to use their slander to gain power
 
RedKing

RedKing

Fabius Maximus said:
Might be a more popular match than the one with Philip as well -- wealth and population mean that England will inevitably end up the senior partner in any union with Scotland, whereas the reverse is true for an Anglo-Spanish union.
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True actually, so if James V is free Mary will marry him?
VVD0D95 said:
Keep james V alive, his death meant there was another chaotic regency. In the regency the Protestants thrived. Without it, they won’t be able to use their slander to gain power
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I see, so a surviving James V it is?
 

VVD0D95

Banned
Tomislav Addai said:
Mainly because the Jacobites rallied their support from the Highlands. I don't really know why, it is something more intuitive.

Perhaps no Calvinism= less capitalism= no Highland clearances? More Gaelic presence?

Perhaps.
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I'm not sure about that, the Jacobites had support from the Highlands yes, but also from the north-east and the east of Scotland.

I think Calvinism and Capitalism aren't necessairily linked. As for a greater Gaelic presence, you'd probably need Macbeth to beat Malcolm III for that. Or for David I never to ascend the throne.
 

Fabius Maximus

RedKing said:
True actually, so if James V is free Mary will marry him?
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Obviously we can't be sure, but I'd consider it plausible.

Also, Mary might be influenced by her maternal ancestors Ferdinand and Isabella, whose marriage had united (most of) Spain into a country that soon became one of the most powerful in Europe. Maybe she'd hope to achieve the same thing in the British Isles.

Of course, if Mary dies childless like in OTL, things might get... interesting. Elizabeth would be next in line to the English throne, but James would be Elizabeth's heir as well as the former king consort of England. Elizabeth would probably still try and promote Protestantism (I think her Protestant beliefs were sincere, and not a matter of expediency or self-interest, as is sometimes suggested), but with a Catholic heir who also happens to control his own kingdom right next door and who already has contacts among the English aristocracy, she'd have to be a good deal more circumspect than IOTL. Maybe instead of mandating attendance at Anglican services, she might try granting freedom of worship to both Catholics and (moderate) Protestants, and then try and build up Protestant influence over time by discriminating in their favour when it comes to appointing people to high office. It would be a difficult balancing act to pull off, though.

Tomislav Addai said:
Somehow, Catholic Scotland is associated to the Gaelic language in my mind
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IOTL Catholicism was stronger in the Highlands, probably because the government in Edinburgh had less authority there. You see a similar patter in England, where you generally found more Recusants the further north you went.
 

Emperor Lucas I

VVD0D95 said:
Keep james V alive, his death meant there was another chaotic regency. In the regency the Protestants thrived. Without it, they won’t be able to use their slander to gain power
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My thoughts exactly. While James V was relatively liberal for his time, he was doing quite good job in restoring strong crown's authority and improving administration. With few decades more, he could make Scotland centralised enough to make spread of reformation much more difficult. Especially if he will father another son, and leave him old enough to break the cycle of long regencies.
 
RedKing

RedKing

Fabius Maximus said:
Of course, if Mary dies childless like in OTL, things might get... interesting. Elizabeth would be next in line to the English throne, but James would be Elizabeth's heir as well as the former king consort of England.
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True, maybe the widowed James tries to court Elizabeth?
 

isabella

I believe who James V would marry Mary only if he had already other heirs but both he and Mary of Guise were clearly fertile so is not unlikely who they had at least a couple of surviving sons in the ten years between James OTL‘s death and Marie’s ATL one.
I do not believe who Elizabeth would have an easy life or protection if Mary Tudor married James so her ending executed and James following his wife on the throne (if he was not already her co-ruler) is the most likely outcome
 

VVD0D95

Banned
Emperor Lucas I said:
My thoughts exactly. While James V was relatively liberal for his time, he was doing quite good job in restoring strong crown's authority and improving administration. With few decades more, he could make Scotland centralised enough to make spread of reformation much more difficult. Especially if he will father another son, and leave him old enough to break the cycle of long regencies.
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Exactly and given there was a general peace between England and Scotland for the 1540s abd 50s outside of meddling I think he could. I see no reason James couldn’t live until his fifties or sixties
 
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