Scipio Africanus vs Belisarius: Who would Win?

I'm interested in anyones opinion on here about this topic. Based on their battle record and their acheivements who do you think would have one in a stand up battle with their opponent? No this isn't Deadliest Warrior where its just these two and four other guys, I want to know your opinions on who would emerge the victor in a full scale battle between these two.
 
I'm interested in anyones opinion on here about this topic. Based on their battle record and their acheivements who do you think would have one in a stand up battle with their opponent? No this isn't Deadliest Warrior where its just these two and four other guys, I want to know your opinions on who would emerge the victor in a full scale battle between these two.


The main question is what kind of armies do they command and the general setting of the battle.
 
In respects to that I'm thinking that Scipio basically is commanding the Army he led to Carthage while Belisarius is in charge of the army he led on the Byzantine conquest of the Vandal Kingdom of North Africa, and in that spirit I see it set somewhere on the shores of modern day Libya.
 

iddt3

Donor
Well the Triarii are still spear armed at that point aren't they? And these are Disciplined legions, not late roman border troops. I think they have a shot, especially since A. I think there's more of them and B. I supect they'd cream Belisarius' infantry. If the Roman's don't break at the first cavalry charge, I think the battle goes to them.
 
Although for someone reason I am inclined to say Scipio Africanus :D (we are talking Major here, not Minor who later burned Carthage and imposed their final defeat right?), it really depends on army, battlefield etc. They were both great generals, but no one can say who was better since they lived in such different time periods. This is like asking who was a better general, Charles Martel or Napoleon? No one can compare to military geniuses if they did not every meet in battle. Although, who had a more important legacy? There I say Scipio Africanus because his victories initiated centuries of Roman dominance of the Mediterranean while Belisarius's conquests where distant memories a few generations after his death. Of course, the Lombard invasion of Italy and the rise of the Caliphate were the reasons his victories did not have a long lasting impact, but that doesn't change the fact that they did not.

Note: I tried not to let the fact that Scipio Africanus is one of my favorite generals in history, to the extent that I made him username on this site, affect this post, but it probably did.

Scipio
 
Well the Triarii are still spear armed at that point aren't they? And these are Disciplined legions, not late roman border troops. I think they have a shot, especially since A. I think there's more of them and B. I supect they'd cream Belisarius' infantry. If the Roman's don't break at the first cavalry charge, I think the battle goes to them.

The Triarii are in no way prepared to fight against the heavy cavalry of Belisarius as well as his light cavalry mercenaries.
 
Well, Scipio has 34.000 Roman troops and 6000 cavalry, about 2/3 of who are probably light Numidian cavalry armed with javelins and the rest medium Italian cavalry.

Belisarius had 10.000 infantry (1/2 roman and 1/2 foederati) and 5000 cavalry (1500 bucelarii, 3000 Roman and foederati and 600 Huns and 400 Heruli horse archers)


I think the battle will go to the Romans if Belisarius is forced to fight and not resort to prolonged skirmishing.

They have more than a 3-1 advantage in infantry and about as many cavalry. While their cavalry is weak, it is really mobile and it will most likely prevent Belisarius' cavalry from successfully striking the rear of Scipio's infantry long enough for the legionaries to route Belisarius' own infantry.

Belisarius will be looking at his infantry shattered and his cavalry unable to secure the flanks effectively. He will probably then have his bucelarii and barbarian horse archers shoot all their arrows at the massed enemy infantry, try a few charges but failing to break them (it will be something like 5 or 6 legionaries for each of Belisarius' horsemen) will retire.

However, if the whole thing plays out Carrhae-style, then Belisarius has a good shot at victory.
 
I doubt Belisarius will allow his infantry to attack the enemy. He'll use his cavalry to chase off the weaker Roman one and then attack the roman infantry from behind. An ironic replication of Zama.
 

wormyguy

Banned
This is kinda like asking who would win, Rommel or Qaddafi. Rommel might be a much better tactician with a much larger and more disciplined force, but tactics and technology have moved on. He'd be crushed almost instantly.
 
Here's my 50 cents on the matter, since this aspect wasn't mentioned in the opening post. Belisarius will win because of two things:

A) Technological advantages. Quality of arms and armour have improved considerably, giving them a clear advantage over the troops of Scipio. In fact, feel free to correct me if I am wrong, but weren't the Romans at Scipio's time still largely using bronze?

B) Knowledge. Simple as that. Belisarius, having knowledge of Scipio's accomplishments, is bound to know of what the man was capable of. So whilst Scipio might have some tricks up his sleeve, superior knowledge of the future (from Scipio's perspective) plus countless of experience with invaders and such, will definitely give Belisarius the advantage.

As said before, if any of you find something wrong, feel free to correct. ;)
 
B) Knowledge. Simple as that. Belisarius, having knowledge of Scipio's accomplishments, is bound to know of what the man was capable of. So whilst Scipio might have some tricks up his sleeve, superior knowledge of the future (from Scipio's perspective) plus countless of experience with invaders and such, will definitely give Belisarius the advantage.

I didn't even consider that. I watched a show once where two retired generals role-played a Hannibal vs. Alexander battle. Hannibal won it easily, and everyone complained, but they pointed out Hannibal was well aware of Alexander's military accomplishments, and Alexander had no idea what Hannibal did.
 
Regarding the Roman army, their armor and helmets were bronze, while the Gladius and Pila were iron. This iron is however inferior to the Steel employed by Belisarius.
 
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