Science and Technology In A Modern Nazi Germany

Ahead of OTL:
Space exploration
Submarines
Synthetic and Pharmacological chemistry
Genetics
Material Science
Directed Energy Weapons
Electrical generation
Recording technology
Practical psychology
Computers

Areas behind OTL:

Theoretical physics
Computer programming
Safety seats in cars
Mass media
Possibly fusion research
 

Jerry Kraus

Banned
I don't think an article in the New England Journal of Medicine any less scholarly than an excerpt from Military Medical Ethics.

The weird thing is they both cite similar sources, but come to opposite conclusions. The article I cite makes more specific mentions of the shortfallings of the report published by the Nazis. However, the paper you cite mentions how the Nazi's data indicated various attributes of hypothermia that have been proven true. 2 major areas where the Nazis were said to be correct were the effect of alcohol on hypothermia and on the ineffectiveness of body warming in hypothermia cases. There do appear to be a greater number of areas where the Nazis appear to have gotten incorrect results and various inconsistencies, both internally within the report and with currently known knowledge. The areas are a bit more complicated to explain and there are quite a few of them.

A major area of conflict is on the effect of hypothermia on the heart.

Fair enough, you're certainly being fair. But, so am I. Look, I'm Jewish myself, I'm no fan of the research in the concentration camps in Germany. The point is, it's not difficult to discredit ANY AND ALL scientific research, throughout human history, if you have a good reason to do it. It's all subjective, it's all distorted, it's all presented and selected to advance some agenda or other, human beings are not capable of being perfectly objective, and we will never know absolute truth. In particular, there is NO SCIENTIFIC METHOD, the very concept is a myth, used to justify research bureaucracies. There is no perfect system for arriving at truth, and making progress in science, it's all just trial and error, intuition, and guesswork. In Jewish tradition, there's no distinction whatsoever between great scientists, and divine prophets. There is no tried and true system here.

So, obviously, with the Nazis, there's every reason to want to discredit their research, given how immoral the regime was, and how sadistic the research was. So, obviously, many people will do just that. Hence, the fact that the U.S. military has clearly found this work to be of some value, despite the fact that they themselves had its author executed -- !!!!????? -- makes me strongly suspect that, from a purely technical and scientific point of view, it was probably pretty good research, at least for the time. And this bears on the whole question in this thread, of how effective Nazi science and technology was. If even their sadistic concentration camp experiments have proven to be of significant value, then I suspect they probably would have done pretty well in science -- the V1 and V2 rockets, the rocket planes, and the jets being prime examples. And, this bears on progress in science in general. Dictatorships can produce quite effective science and technology. Why? Who knows, exactly? As I suggest, transcending pure capitalist greed may be the reason. Fear for your life may be a more effective motivation for achieving technical progress, than a desire to make money, at times, I suppose.
 
Throw in the resources dedicated towards an endless guerrilla conflict on the Eastern front, you have even more restrictions.

How is there a guerilla conflict in the East when most of the people who would be needed to actually wage one against the Germans would be dead and/or over the Urals? Germany would definitely face a problem in the East, but it would be the issue of what to do with the emptied land, not a guerilla war.
 
How is there a guerilla conflict in the East when most of the people who would be needed to actually wage one against the Germans would be dead and/or over the Urals? Germany would definitely face a problem in the East, but it would be the issue of what to do with the emptied land, not a guerilla war.

Eastern Europe's population is huge. Simply maintain the force necessary to lock it down would be a tremendous burden, especially when the Nazis are giving no quarter to the population (thus there's little reason to cooperate). And this is assuming people don't come back over the Urals to launch attacks.
 

Deleted member 97083

Contrary to popular opinion, dictatorships can often breed quite effective science and technology. They're more focused on actual, practical achievement, and less on making money, than capitalist democracies. After all, it was the Soviet Union that successfully launched the first satellite, and put the first man into space. And, currently, even Kim Jong-un's extremely small, poor and repressive North Korea continues to surprise the world with its ability to develop impressive weapons technology.
The Soviets did have a very high proportion of engineering, mathematics, physics, science discoveries. But was this because they were a dictatorship, or because they had a massive population larger than the U.S. at the time and significant funding of engineering education?

Many of the Soviet-era physics and mathematics discoveries went unused or remained theoretical until the 1990s, when Western computing technology from outside the Eastern Bloc allowed them to be simulated or applied for the first time.

True, but unlike Nazi Germany the USSR wasn't insanely obsessed with racial and ideological 'purity' of it's science establishment. Meanwhile, Germany discards major parts of quantum physics as being impure "Judenphysik".
Soviets were also obsessed with ideological purity of its science establishment, in areas like Lysenkoism and the campaign against cybernetics.

Germany would definitely be years behind in quantum and nuclear physics. Especially because of the Lost Generation of physicists due to combined factors of the Nazi persecution of scientists of Jewish background, and the military conscription of most remaining physicists.

However, Werner Heisenberg and associates would probably re-establish, slowly, the physics research in Germany. If he dies early though, Germany would be totally backwards in that regard, and lack of contact with discoveries made in the West, by all the experts that continued research in the U.S. and Britain, would cause an increasing gap.

With a POD early enough that changes the course of the war, due to butterfly effect, Heisenberg might be killed by the Nazi government during those purges.

Well, Albert Einstein rejected quantum physics -- "God does not play at dice!" I'm not sure I'm too keen on quantum physics myself, and, it was not particularly a product of Jewish scientists.
Albert Einstein "rejected quantum physics"? He was one of the founding fathers of quantum physics, besides Planck and Schroedinger. Einstein rejected the Copenhagen interpretation, not quantum physics as a whole. It was the investigation of Einstein's theories and postulates that revealed most quantum physics.

Einstein thought that quantum physics had to follow physical realism. He did not live to see Bell's theorem and the Bell test experiments which demonstrated that the physical world (and quantum theory) is not compatible with local realism. If Einstein had seen those experiments, he probably would have changed his mind on the Copenhagen interpretation.

This trope is overplayed, the Nazi scientists were utter garbage at getting actual useful data from their experiments. They were merely performed experiments to satisfy their sadism.
Yes, the Nazi scientists were certainly sadistic and garbage at performing actual science, if it can be even called an attempt at science.

Yet there were non-Nazi scientists stuck inside Germany and scientific institutions that continued research. Non-war-related scientific research continued to a surprising extent during both WW1 and WW2, even in countries devastated by both wars. Even in occupied Czechia, treated as a colony, brutalized by the Nazi regime, and where forced laborers were being conscripted from, there were some Czech scientists that continued work as usual, before, during, and after the war.

It is also pretty crazy how quickly West Germany liberated by the Allies resumed normal science from 1946 onward--of course, much of this is due to persecuted scientists that returned, but (outside of the field of physics) a number of the institutions and ongoing projects basically remained through that time.

Their work on hypothermia, for example, is probably the most useful that has ever been done.
Not true, the data in the Nazi hypothermia experiments is generally agreed to be unusable since they failed to use the scientific method.
 
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A Nazi Germany surviving or avoiding the second world war could take many forms.

One could easily imagine a development similar to what happened in Franco's Spain or Stalin's Soviet Union, where the brutality and genocide is quickly rolled back and we actually end up much the same place as today (minus a decade or two).

One could also imagine a victorious Nazi Germany going full Khmer Rouge and doing a full-scale genocide. I would, however, argue that this would require that the regime was at some point at risk of losing a war or driven to desperation by other means. In this case, I would expect to see technology stagnate around 1950's levels, similar to what we see in today's Cuba or North Korea, or perhaps even slipping further backwards like Venezuela. Yes, yes, North Korea can get nukes, but only because they can copy the technology from others. There is - to my understanding - no North Korean inventions of any note for the past 70 years.

The economic problem is basically one of a lack of innovation and disruption. In an authoritarian state, whether it calls itself national socialist, communist, chavist or what ever, the lack of a free market hinders the application and dissemination of new technology. Thus, while theoretical discoveries are still being made, these will rarely be applicated and thus not developed further. Naturally, one could imagine a few exceptions to the rule, such as Soviet space technology, but there are just that: exceptions.
 
It won't be after Generalplan Ost is taken to its ultimate conclusion.

Yes but that requires Generalplan Ost to be implemented and succeed, which I noted was incredibly difficult given Eastern Europe's size - just securing the East enough so you can actually implement it, never mind implementing it, would be a monumental task. And this is assuming you face no outside resistance either.
 
Well, Albert Einstein rejected quantum physics -- "God does not play at dice!" I'm not sure I'm too keen on quantum physics myself, and, it was not particularly a product of Jewish scientists. Niels Bohr and Werner Heisenberg were quite pure Aryans, I believe.

And, take a little closer look at the Nazis attitude toward racial and ideological purity, with regards to science and technology. Werner Heisenberg was openly anti-Nazi, but he retained his positions and influence, and was largely involved with the Nazi A-bomb project. Melitta von Stauffenberg was both half-Jewish, AND the sister in law of Claus von Stauffenberg, the leader of the plot to assassinate Hitler, but she was a top Nazi scientist and test pilot, as well known and respected as Hanna Reitsch. She retained her positions after the assassination plot failed, although she had been slated to fly the top assassins to their targets! She was simply deemed to be too valuable to be liquidated, so they exonerated her. The Nazis could be remarkably flexible, at times, you know.

Niels Bohr was baptized as a child later he became a atheists, but his mother belonged to a old Jewish family in Denmark. So while he wouldn't be send to the camp, he would suffer discrimination as a Mischling of 1st degree in any Greater German State, which included Denmark or in a Danish state which was a German vassal, of course the prestige and connection of his father's family and his own social standing would likely keep any discrimination against him pretty light.
 
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Throughout World War Two-oriented media, Nazi Germany is depicted as a powerhouse, especially in the fields of science and technology. From advanced spacecraft to superheavy tanks, their alleged mastery of engineering is displayed for every consumer of such media to see. Judging by internet commentary and the Third Reich's depicted technological superiority, it has a strong influence. In my eyes, it's unduely so.

I, like many on Alternate History.com, am quite skeptical of the OP Nazi trope being a true one. Do correct me if I'm wrong about this, but their frequently over-engineered armor, insane investments into Wunderwaffen, and gross economic mismanagement not just in real life, but in what they planned to do, very much implies otherwise.

Most of all, though, Nazi Germany was a state enslaved to a fanatical, uncompromising ideology of war, genocide, and Aryan supremacism. In addition to promoting evils beyond all question, it forbade the kind of open exchange, freedom of experimentation, and fact-over-narrative mindset necessary (or at least, game-changing) for the acquisition of knowledge--not just in the hard sciences, but in such fields as history, literature, philosophy and perhaps everywhere else. Pretty much any field of knowledge that I can think of could end up stunted, under or badly developed, or otherwise amount to mental gymnastics that goes unquestioned under Nazi oversight.

Add that to an entire generation growing up under a bang-head-on-desk-terrible education system, and I see little hope for breaking their nationwide echo chamber.

But what do you guys think? What are some better-informed opinions about how Nazi German science and technology would've turned out, had the Third Reich magically survived up to 2018?

Thank you in advance,
Zyobot
Maybe a scenario where the Nazi Party continue to dominate Germany could happen if WW2 was avoided or happened at a smaller scale.
 
Well, Albert Einstein rejected quantum physics -- "God does not play at dice!" I'm not sure I'm too keen on quantum physics myself, and, it was not particularly a product of Jewish scientists. Niels Bohr and Werner Heisenberg were quite pure Aryans, I believe.

And, take a little closer look at the Nazis attitude toward racial and ideological purity, with regards to science and technology. Werner Heisenberg was openly anti-Nazi, but he retained his positions and influence, and was largely involved with the Nazi A-bomb project. Melitta von Stauffenberg was both half-Jewish, AND the sister in law of Claus von Stauffenberg, the leader of the plot to assassinate Hitler, but she was a top Nazi scientist and test pilot, as well known and respected as Hanna Reitsch. She retained her positions after the assassination plot failed, although she had been slated to fly the top assassins to their targets! She was simply deemed to be too valuable to be liquidated, so they exonerated her. The Nazis could be remarkably flexible, at times, you know.
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Yes but that requires Generalplan Ost to be implemented and succeed, which I noted was incredibly difficult given Eastern Europe's size - just securing the East enough so you can actually implement it, never mind implementing it, would be a monumental task. And this is assuming you face no outside resistance either.

If we assume a Nazi victory, they`ll do it, and be done with it within a decade, if not sooner. After all, they made incredible headway in that regard in during the war. The "endless guerilla war in the East" is a fantasy.
 
If we assume a Nazi victory, they`ll do it, and be done with it within a decade, if not sooner. After all, they made incredible headway in that regard in during the war. The "endless guerilla war in the East" is a fantasy.

And it will likely break the economy while doing so. Their economy was barely holding it together in OTL, the military activities required to secure the East will accelerate the coming collapse.
 

Jerry Kraus

Banned
Throughout World War Two-oriented media, Nazi Germany is depicted as a powerhouse, especially in the fields of science and technology. From advanced spacecraft to superheavy tanks, their alleged mastery of engineering is displayed for every consumer of such media to see. Judging by internet commentary and the Third Reich's depicted technological superiority, it has a strong influence. In my eyes, it's unduely so.

I, like many on Alternate History.com, am quite skeptical of the OP Nazi trope being a true one. Do correct me if I'm wrong about this, but their frequently over-engineered armor, insane investments into Wunderwaffen, and gross economic mismanagement not just in real life, but in what they planned to do, very much implies otherwise.

Most of all, though, Nazi Germany was a state enslaved to a fanatical, uncompromising ideology of war, genocide, and Aryan supremacism. In addition to promoting evils beyond all question, it forbade the kind of open exchange, freedom of experimentation, and fact-over-narrative mindset necessary (or at least, game-changing) for the acquisition of knowledge--not just in the hard sciences, but in such fields as history, literature, philosophy and perhaps everywhere else. Pretty much any field of knowledge that I can think of could end up stunted, under or badly developed, or otherwise amount to mental gymnastics that goes unquestioned under Nazi oversight.

Add that to an entire generation growing up under a bang-head-on-desk-terrible education system, and I see little hope for breaking their nationwide echo chamber.

But what do you guys think? What are some better-informed opinions about how Nazi German science and technology would've turned out, had the Third Reich magically survived up to 2018?

Thank you in advance,
Zyobot



Throughout World War Two-oriented media, Nazi Germany is depicted as a powerhouse, especially in the fields of science and technology. From advanced spacecraft to superheavy tanks, their alleged mastery of engineering is displayed for every consumer of such media to see. Judging by internet commentary and the Third Reich's depicted technological superiority, it has a strong influence. In my eyes, it's unduely so.

I, like many on Alternate History.com, am quite skeptical of the OP Nazi trope being a true one. Do correct me if I'm wrong about this, but their frequently over-engineered armor, insane investments into Wunderwaffen, and gross economic mismanagement not just in real life, but in what they planned to do, very much implies otherwise.

Most of all, though, Nazi Germany was a state enslaved to a fanatical, uncompromising ideology of war, genocide, and Aryan supremacism. In addition to promoting evils beyond all question, it forbade the kind of open exchange, freedom of experimentation, and fact-over-narrative mindset necessary (or at least, game-changing) for the acquisition of knowledge--not just in the hard sciences, but in such fields as history, literature, philosophy and perhaps everywhere else. Pretty much any field of knowledge that I can think of could end up stunted, under or badly developed, or otherwise amount to mental gymnastics that goes unquestioned under Nazi oversight.

Add that to an entire generation growing up under a bang-head-on-desk-terrible education system, and I see little hope for breaking their nationwide echo chamber.

But what do you guys think? What are some better-informed opinions about how Nazi German science and technology would've turned out, had the Third Reich magically survived up to 2018?

Thank you in advance,
Zyobot

Quite specifically, if the Nazis win the war, we're definitely going to be having a number of important technologies ahead of OTL. Specifically:

1. Intercontinental Ballistic Missiles.
2. Unmanned earth satellites in space.
3. Commercial jet aircraft and travel.

The Nazis will certainly have these all by 1950. They were well on the way to all three by 1945, and they were priority technologies.

That's really the point. Practical, applied research will be emphasized, pure research will be de-emphasized, as in the Soviet Union, as in contemporary Communist China. So, the long term development of computer technology and biotechnology is much less likely in Nazi Germany, than in the United States, for example. These took decades to fully develop, and, their long term outcomes were unclear. Dictators like quick practical results.
 
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