Schlieffen blitzkrieg Plan

May 10th 1909 a young gun Designer from Mauser arms is grated a privet meeting with Kaiser Wilhelm II. The young men give to the kaiser the first Mauser 09 belt and allows him to shout it. The Mauser 09 is the the woulds first selective fire gun and is chambered for the Mauser 8x57 IS round with a 20 round clip. In full auto the Mauser 09 can fire 700 rounds/min. (think M14 but in Mauser 8x57 IS) the Kaiser impressed with the gun he orders the Mauser 09 to be made the stand service rifle weapon of the German army. June 1 1911 the same young gun Designer bring to the Kaiser the Sturmgewehr 11. (think Sturmgewehr 44) The Kaiser orders that 1/4th of each Infantry
Battalion was to be armed with the Sturmgewehr 11, will the reaming where to be armed with the Mauser 09. July 15 1911 Helmuth von Moltke the Younger after seeing a new Earth moving unite call a bulldozer has a idea of brilliance. Born the Panzer 1911 and the Panzer 1912 tanks . (think Panzerkampfwagen II and Panzerkampfwagen III) During the fall of 1913 Helmuth von Moltke the Younger cars out a group of war games that results in him crating a new battle type he calls blitzkrieg. In the days leading up to the war he modifies the Schlieffen Plan in to a blitzkrieg plan. when the war begins in 1914 the Germans lunch Schlieffen blitzkrieg Plan.
Will the plan work and how will the war go and what will be more important the Mauser 09 or the Sturmgewehr 11.
 

Bearcat

Banned
Early tanks (pre-1930s) are not mechanically reliable enough for deep penetrations a la blitzkrieg. The German war machine breaks down somewhere in Belgium. The strain on their logistical system causes a general collapse. Allies reach Berlin in 1915. tanks are discredited for the next 30 years.
 
In OTL, the Mondragón was the first selective-fire rifle. Looking at its flaws - poor reliability, high tendency to jam, and poor accuracy - it's reasonable to assume that similar flaws would come into play with the hypothetical Mauser 09, which would likely see it rejected rather than adopted as a service rifle. The value of automatic fire was not appreciated in this period; keep in mind that the German army of 1914 had just one machine gun company (with six machine-guns) per regiment (or light infantry battalion), and that this was typical of 1914 standards.

Incidentally, the first true bulldozers weren't built until 1923. Holt tractors served as inspiration for tanks in OTL... but not until the front bogged down. In a war of maneuver, which was expected, there'd be no reason to use a tractor chassis rather than an armored car.
 

archaeogeek

Banned
May 10th 1909 a young gun Designer from Mauser arms is grated a privet meeting with Kaiser Wilhelm II. The young men give to the kaiser the first Mauser 09 belt and allows him to shout it. The Mauser 09 is the the woulds first selective fire gun and is chambered for the Mauser 8x57 IS round with a 20 round clip. In full auto the Mauser 09 can fire 700 rounds/min. (think M14 but in Mauser 8x57 IS) the Kaiser impressed with the gun he orders the Mauser 09 to be made the stand service rifle weapon of the German army. June 1 1911 the same young gun Designer bring to the Kaiser the Sturmgewehr 11. (think Sturmgewehr 44) The Kaiser orders that 1/4th of each Infantry
Small arms are not that essential to blietzkrieg - the french and german invented stormtrooper tactics without the smg, for one - otoh, the first smg was the MP18 (production started in 1918) - like the Mondragon, it was rather unreliable and certainly nothing like this draka-level automatic rifle.

Battalion was to be armed with the Sturmgewehr 11, will the reaming where to be armed with the Mauser 09. July 15 1911 Helmuth von Moltke the Younger after seeing a new Earth moving unite call a bulldozer has a idea of brilliance. Born the Panzer 1911 and the Panzer 1912 tanks . (think Panzerkampfwagen II and Panzerkampfwagen III) During the fall of 1913 Helmuth von Moltke the Younger cars out a group of war games that results in him crating a new battle type he calls blitzkrieg. In the days leading up to the war he modifies the Schlieffen Plan in to a blitzkrieg plan. when the war begins in 1914 the Germans lunch Schlieffen blitzkrieg Plan.
Will the plan work and how will the war go and what will be more important the Mauser 09 or the Sturmgewehr 11.

There is little to no way a full battalion-sized unit would be armed with automatic weapons in ww1 unless they're a rare specialist unit (machine gunners, stormtroopers, etc). This was barely done even in ww2.
 
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Slightly ASB but not totally in my mind.
The Mondragon began in the late 1880s. If Mauser were aware of this then if an engineer is sat there bored one lunch there's nothing to say he wouldn't look at it see the issues and think, what would happen if I changed this bit to stop it jamming...
In theory there's 30 years between the Mondragon coming into existance and the start of this timeline, now admittedly this is with modern technology, but it only took H&K a year to turn the L85a1 into a good rifle*, so Mauser could do the same with the mondragon in 10-15 years I guess.



*My personal experience - when the a1 worked, it worked well. Light, accurate, easy to learn, easy to shoot. When it went wrong it was like a clown car - would fall apart as soon as you looked at it.
The a2 can survive even being used by medics now. :D
 
The Schlieffen plan was an attack of maneuverer, like the French plan XVII.

Tanks, like the early ones appearing on the West Front were mechanical unreliable and slower than a horse or even a foot soldier. The military leaders will be not impressed with it and would not see any advantages of it. How ever they would see some advantage in a motorize artillery piece with or without armor, like the later Sturm geschutz as mobile artillery support of the infantry.

As for assault rifles, why not use the Danish Madsen, perfect reliable light machine gun, developed in the first decade of the 20th century.
 
Even if the tanks somehow magically are reliable and fast enough to form the right wing of the German army and survive a 200+ km trek, they're still useless unless the other arms such as the infantry are able to keep up.

In addition you'd also need fast self-propelled artillery or flying air-support such as a Ju-87 to make this work.
 

archaeogeek

Banned
Even if the tanks somehow magically are reliable and fast enough to form the right wing of the German army and survive a 200+ km trek, they're still useless unless the other arms such as the infantry are able to keep up.

In addition you'd also need fast self-propelled artillery or flying air-support such as a Ju-87 to make this work.

Actually it's the reverse, ww1 tanks would have had trouble keeping up with a charge and tended to have maximum speeds barely fast enough to keep up with a marching pace (4-6 mph).
 
Even if the tanks somehow magically are reliable and fast enough to form the right wing of the German army and survive a 200+ km trek, they're still useless unless the other arms such as the infantry are able to keep up.

In addition you'd also need fast self-propelled artillery or flying air-support such as a Ju-87 to make this work.


Would it be possible for a 1914 aircraft to be fitted with a machine-gun pointing downwards at about 45 degrees?

Used to strafe retreating troops, it could come in handy for turning a retreat into a rout.
 

archaeogeek

Banned
Would it be possible for a 1914 aircraft to be fitted with a machine-gun pointing downwards at about 45 degrees?

Used to strafe retreating troops, it could come in handy for turning a retreat into a rout.

It would also give horrible ideas to commanders about strafing retreating troops: their own.
 
Actually it's the reverse, ww1 tanks would have had trouble keeping up with a charge and tended to have maximum speeds barely fast enough to keep up with a marching pace (4-6 mph).

I think you misread my post, although I think it was pretty clear.
I said:
"even if the tanks somehow magically are reliable and fast enough to form the right wing of the German army and survive a 200+ km trek, they're still useless unless the other arms such as the infantry are able to keep up..."
(emphasis added)

So even though it's extremely unlikely the Germans - without having any perceived need for it - develop a costly speedy armoured vehicle, that still doesn't solve their problem that their other arms aren't quick enough to keep up with that magical vehicle.
Any armour unsupported is going to get destroyed by infantry and artillery firing over open sights quickly, even in WWI. That was my point.

Would it be possible for a 1914 aircraft to be fitted with a machine-gun pointing downwards at about 45 degrees?

Used to strafe retreating troops, it could come in handy for turning a retreat into a rout.

The British f.ex. had the F.E. 2, with a pusher prop and a gunner with a flexible mounted machinegun in the front.
However, that's still not heavily armed enough to give decent air support and (partially) replace artillery. You need sizable stuff exploding for that. :D
 
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