Schliefen vs Seelöwe

They didn't fight their win in, and there was no battle for Paris. They just laid a siege, fired a few artillery barrages into the city and were allowed in by the French government, and pulled out according to the demand of the French. Then the commune took over when the city was to be disarmed, and it was the French who actually had to take the city by force.

Its not the same thing. The word I was captured. Its not the same as entered.
The French had to capture it.

May be semantics, but in a 1871 vs 1914 vs 1940 analysis its the meaning of events that count.

Except they did not capture the city. There was fighting in the city but at no point did they "capture it" Oh and yes the Germans captured the citiy just because there was no battle for it doesn't mean it wasn't captured. I mean for fucks sake the Germans held a fucking victory parade in the city!
 
IIRC by 1st Marne the French had basically given up on the city if they lost the battle.

Actually IIRC Gallieni had been undertaking defensive works and preparations in the city once the Battle of the Frontiers begun to look worrysome for the Entente, even if the government had to be evacuated etc. But when the Germans offered their flank in the Marne he saw the opportunity to make a winning gamble and sent troops meant to defend Paris to exploit the german error.
 
Eh... beating the Germans after a failed Sealion would have still taken a another 3-4 years even if they went and tried to invade the USSR. Which is a 1-2 year improvement. Probably just as long as IOTL, if not longer, if they decided to forego Barbarossa.

If Sealion was lost after the second wave landed the German army would be decapitated. It would have lost all its airborne troops, nearly all its mountain troops, some of its best panzer divisions (and about 1200 armoured vehicles), 2 elite Jager divisions, Rommel, Manstein, and many other of its best commanders and troops including the Brandenberg commandos, the Liebstandarte motorised regiment, the Grossdeutchland motorised regiment (actually both were brigade sized). The infantry divisions were all first welle/wave divisions and some were rated the best in the German army. If the Army Group HQ also landed in England, then von Rundstedt and Model (his chief of staff) are gone as well. You also would have to count in severe losses to the Luftwaffe (especially the air transport fleet) and the destruction of the Kriegsmarine. Many of these divisions were destroyed and rebuilt during the war but this time maybe the cadre use to rebuild them would be in British prison camps. I suppose it would be something like losing the troops in Tunisia and Stalingrad simultaneously but without any troops/commanders being flown out and not being able to blame it on the Italians/Romanians etc.

All sounds like Hitler's days would be numbered and a much shorter war.
 
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If Sealion was lost after the second wave landed the German army would be decapitated.

Given how what most likely would happen is that there wouldn't be a second wave as it requires the first wave to not be ripped to shreds despite the fact it would take the invasion fleet 48 hours going just one way... yeah.
 

BooNZ

Banned
If Sealion was lost after the second wave landed the German army would be decapitated. It would have lost all its airborne troops, nearly all its mountain troops, some of its best panzer divisions (and about 1200 armoured vehicles), 2 elite Jager divisions, Rommel, Manstein, and many other of its best commanders and troops including the Brandenberg commandos, the Liebstandarte motorised regiment, the Grossdeutchland motorised regiment (actually both were brigade sized). The infantry divisions were all first welle/wave divisions and some were rated the best in the German army. If the Army Group HQ also landed in England, then von Rundstedt and Model (his chief of staff) are gone as well. You also would have to count in severe losses to the Luftwaffe (especially the air transport fleet) and the destruction of the Kriegsmarine. Many of these divisions were destroyed and rebuilt during the war but this time maybe the cadre use to rebuild them would be in British prison camps. I suppose it would be something like losing the troops in Tunisia and Stalingrad simultaneously but without any troops/commanders being flown out and not being able to blame it on the Italians/Romanians etc.

All sounds like Hitler's days would be numbered and a much shorter war.

If the second wave has landed with multiple armoured divisions, then the space bats have done their work and Germans have already won.
 
Given how what most likely would happen is that there wouldn't be a second wave as it requires the first wave to not be ripped to shreds despite the fact it would take the invasion fleet 48 hours going just one way... yeah.
The best thing about Sealion for Germany is that it would fail so quickly that they wouldn't have time to double down.
 
Good for the Heer, but the situation would almost equally dire for the Kriegsmarine, and pretty bad for the Luftwaffe.
 
I suppose it would be something like losing the troops in Tunisia and Stalingrad simultaneously...

So the war ended when the Germans lost the Battle of Stalingrad and then Tunisia shortly thereafter? (In fact, Sealion might be like either in isolation, but these threads are all about out-wanking the previous poster on the negative effects of Sealion).

Let's say your over-the-top estimates are actually correct. So what? Exactly how does gutting the Luftwaffe's transport forces and 1,200 obsolete tanks help Britain win the war?
 
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Given how what most likely would happen is that there wouldn't be a second wave as it requires the first wave to not be ripped to shreds despite the fact it would take the invasion fleet 48 hours going just one way... yeah.

Wait, you guys have to decide on what the story is. Sitalkes just decided the 2nd wave landed full force - 8 panzer divisions ready to go. All this gets defeated so we have Tunisia + Stalingrad, two full German armies defeated. Now you're saying that the first wave doesn't even gain a bridgehead so we don't have that, something more like a fraction of one of them.

The Germans get the 2nd wave ashore for the purpose of inflating the losses, but they don't get them ashore for the purpose of the RN smashing the first wave? (In quantum mechanics electrons can be in two places at once, but I'm pretty sure that Sealion can't).
 
Let's say your over-the-top estimates are actually correct. So what? Exactly how does gutting the Luftwaffe's transport forces and 1,200 obsolete tanks help Britain win the war?
Crete remains in Allied hands, because the Germans won't have enough time to rebuild the airborne forces, and the loss of men and material means the Germans can't help the Italians in North Africa, so Tripoli falls in 1941. Of course, there's going to be no second wave (not enough barges will get back to bother with, and they didn't have all the barges for the first wave IIRC), so it's far fewer tanks, but still maybe enough men to preclude an action in North Africa.
 
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