Scandinavian population boom?

[Domoviye]

One problem the Scandinavian countries have had is a lack of people compared to the Southern European countries. When they tried to fight Russia, Prussia, Poland etc, this lack of manpower always held them back despite having some very good leaders.
Now what if the Vikings who traveled to Newfoundland had gone farther south? At that time some types of corn were being grown in the North East parts of America.
Could the Vikings have successfully introduced this new vegetable to Greenland and Iceland, and finally to the Scandinavian countries? If they could this new food source could cause a major population boom, much like the potato did in Ireland. Would this reduce the Scandinavian under population long enough for them to really expand south and east?

 

[john]

I don't think corn reached the northeast until much later, something like the 1500's IIRC. It took a long time to breed a corn that would grow that far north. I don't think there's any chance of corn growing in Iceland or Greenland, or even in Scandanavia (at that time, dunno 'bout now)

 

[Valdemar II]

If you want to give Scandinavia a strong position, you just need tokeep Godfred of Denmark from being murdered, he had three victories over Charlemagne, he would likely have burned Aarchen down and annexed (tribal) Saxony and Frisia if he had lived a few years more.
Another solution is the introduction of Spanish clover early to Denmark, in OTL it was a important effect of the Danish population boom of 18th century (it can be introduced as early as the 15th century), if it hit together with a early introduction of potatoes, the effect is likely a doubling of the population.

 

[Oddball]

Best trick is to avoid the black death. Without it you have a relativly much larger population base to start with, compared to the rest of Europe.

A later trick would be to force the potato on the population as soon as it became known from America.

 

[Oddball]

Another solution is the introduction of Spanish clover early to Denmark, in OTL it was a important effect of the Danish population boom of 18th century (it can be introduced as early as the 15th century),

Care to elaborate????

 

[Domoviye]

I don't think corn reached the northeast until much later, something like the 1500's IIRC. It took a long time to breed a corn that would grow that far north. I don't think there's any chance of corn growing in Iceland or Greenland, or even in Scandanavia (at that time, dunno 'bout now)

I thought that corn had made it up their before that time, around the late 1300's just as Greenland was being depopulated.
I agree that it would be hard to grown in Greenland and Iceland, but what about Scandinavia? Does anyone know if thats possible?

 

[Valdemar II]

Care to elaborate????

Spanish clover or domesticated clover, shorten the time land need to lie fallow, because it reintroduce nitras into the soil, beside that it's excellent cattle feed, areas with clover also get more bees, which mean both a increase in honey and fruit production. And last and not least because clover has a high level of protein, it can be eaten in famines by human if it's boiled. In OTL from it introduction to Denmark in 1740 to it maximum spread in 1800 the Danish population (of modern Denmark minus Schleswig) increased from 700 thousand to one million, it wasn't the only factor, but it was one of the most important.
In OTL Spanish clover was fully cultivated by the 11th century, but it only got to North Europe with the introduction to Netherlands in the Habsburg periode in 16th Century from there it spread to the Rhineland in the 17th century to finally reach Holstein in 1720.

 

[Oddball]

Spanish clover or domesticated clover, shorten the time land need to lie fallow, because it reintroduce nitras into the soil,

Interesting. Thanks!

 

[Domoviye]

Spanish clover or domesticated clover, shorten the time land need to lie fallow, because it reintroduce nitras into the soil, beside that it's excellent cattle feed, areas with clover also get more bees, which mean both a increase in honey and fruit production. And last and not least because clover has a high level of protein, it can be eaten in famines by human if it's boiled. In OTL from it introduction to Denmark in 1740 to it maximum spread in 1800 the Danish population (of modern Denmark minus Schleswig) increased from 700 thousand to one million, it wasn't the only factor, but it was one of the most important.
In OTL Spanish clover was fully cultivated by the 11th century, but it only got to North Europe with the introduction to Netherlands in the Habsburg periode in 16th Century from there it spread to the Rhineland in the 17th century to finally reach Holstein in 1720.

Cool. That would be useful.
Thanks for the responses people, they're very useful. Now if Scandinavia had a population boom a bit earlier than others, what are some of the possibilities?

 

[Valdemar II]

Cool. That would be useful.
Thanks for the responses people, they're very useful. Now if Scandinavia had a population boom a bit earlier than others, what are some of the possibilities?

It dependt on the century. The best case would be a population boom in the 11-13th century, which would result in a Danish/Scandinavia Pommerania, Livonia, Estonia and Courland, avoiding the black plague would likely result in the same. A earlier boom in the 16th Century would likely result Danish colonies in NA and more Danish influence in North Germany, but have little effect on the demograpic makeup of North Europe.

 

[Deleted member 1487]

A population boom is not necessarily needed. In fact, until about the 19th century, most of the armies of the era were made up of mercenaries, so the supply of soldiers is not a problem. The major factor in the failure of the Scandinavians was infighting. They spent a large portion of their power fighting each other, while a unified crown would help the population rise, due to lack of destruction in their homelands, and a concentration of effort in various wars.

Given their population size and wealth, the Scandinavian powers were disproportionately effective in their various wars, so united, they would be a truly formidable opponent. There are several points in history to make this happen, but the first that I know of is in the 14th century under the Kalmar union, but that had serious political problems.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalmar_Union

If it somehow holds together, the Baltic becomes a Scandinavian lake, and grain from the Baltic states and coastal areas held sustain a population increase and a large trade surplus. The Netherlands relied on products from the Baltic area for business, but if the Scandinavians are united, they would control that area and have a large fleet and merchant marine to create a trading empire. By the time Poland rises, the Scandinavians are going to be more developed, richer, and prepared to war on a scale Sweden only dreamed on OTL. Russia is likely to meet an enemy double the population and wealth, which is going to smash them back into the Steppe.

It probably means a colonial empire and increased population growth as wealth and shipping mean foods from across the world can be imported. Russia will still grow in power, as will Germany and possibly Poland, meaning that there will be powerful enemies, but also likely powerful friends if the political game is played right. Though likely to remain a regional power, a united Scandinavia is going to be a major player in the industrial revolution. The question is who the friends are going to be, whether Germany unites, if France is a monarchy, if Russia is going to keep fighting in the north....etc.

Massive butterflies will result, but Scandinavia is going to be at least as powerful as Austria-Hungary, but with a lower, urbanized, and industrialized population and decent sized, middling empire. Something on the order of Belgium and Portugal, though bigger, but maybe not economically viable in the machine age.

 

[Valdemar II]

A population boom is not necessarily needed. In fact, until about the 19th century, most of the armies of the era were made up of mercenaries, so the supply of soldiers is not a problem. The major factor in the failure of the Scandinavians was infighting. They spent a large portion of their power fighting each other, while a unified crown would help the population rise, due to lack of destruction in their homelands, and a concentration of effort in various wars.

But let's take a example Denmark proper (includes Skaaneland and Schleswig at the time) had a little over million inhabitants in 1620. With the introduction of Spanish clover and potatoes, we may double that, Denmark was the source of the majority of Danish king income, so by doubling the income from Denmark he can afford bigger armies, beside with the adoption of national armies in 17th and 18th centuries it mean significant bigger armies, in OTL Denmark could field 100.000 man* in the late 18th century the majority of these was raised in Denmark proper (here it doesn't includes Skaaneland and Schleswig), by includes Skaaneland and a double population Denmark may raise as much as 200.000 man**. Of course in OTL Denmark in 17th was one of Europes most militariesed states, with a bigger propotion of the population in the army than Prussia. So a bigger population will have enormous effect.

*Denmark looked at increasing the army to 150.000 at the time.

**as a comparison France had a army at the same time of 400.000 and Austria 500.000.

 

[MNP]

Remember geography. There is the Keel Mountains between Norway and Sweden. It looks like they should be joined but geographically Denmark+Norway or Sweden+Denmark is simply easier.

 

[Domoviye]

If it somehow holds together, the Baltic becomes a Scandinavian lake, and grain from the Baltic states and coastal areas held sustain a population increase and a large trade surplus. The Netherlands relied on products from the Baltic area for business, but if the Scandinavians are united, they would control that area and have a large fleet and merchant marine to create a trading empire. By the time Poland rises, the Scandinavians are going to be more developed, richer, and prepared to war on a scale Sweden only dreamed on OTL. Russia is likely to meet an enemy double the population and wealth, which is going to smash them back into the Steppe.

It probably means a colonial empire and increased population growth as wealth and shipping mean foods from across the world can be imported. Russia will still grow in power, as will Germany and possibly Poland, meaning that there will be powerful enemies, but also likely powerful friends if the political game is played right. Though likely to remain a regional power, a united Scandinavia is going to be a major player in the industrial revolution. The question is who the friends are going to be, whether Germany unites, if France is a monarchy, if Russia is going to keep fighting in the north....etc.

Massive butterflies will result, but Scandinavia is going to be at least as powerful as Austria-Hungary, but with a lower, urbanized, and industrialized population and decent sized, middling empire. Something on the order of Belgium and Portugal, though bigger, but maybe not economically viable in the machine age.

Thanks, this has given me lots of good ideas. Much appreciated.

 

[arctic warrior]

I thought that corn had made it up their before that time, around the late 1300's just as Greenland was being depopulated.
I agree that it would be hard to grown in Greenland and Iceland, but what about Scandinavia? Does anyone know if thats possible?

It is grown today in Denmark but apart from seeing it in the fields thats all I would know about it!

 

[arctic warrior]

Remember geography. There is the Keel Mountains between Norway and Sweden. It looks like they should be joined but geographically Denmark+Norway or Sweden+Denmark is simply easier.

Actually pre-1645 Jämtland and Härjedal had been part of Norway situated to the east of the mountains.

 

[john]

I thought that corn had made it up their before that time, around the late 1300's just as Greenland was being depopulated.
I agree that it would be hard to grown in Greenland and Iceland, but what about Scandinavia? Does anyone know if thats possible?

hmm, just did some reading, and it seems corn reached southern new england around 1000ad. That would be conneticut/mass area, but not much further. Around the time of the european explorations, corn had reached the lower St Lawrence. Still, don't think it's possible for corn to grow further north, so maybe potatos are your best bet.

 

[CanadianGoose]

If it somehow holds together, the Baltic becomes a Scandinavian lake, and grain from the Baltic states and coastal areas held sustain a population increase and a large trade surplus.

Hold your horses right here. Raising Scandinavian power would enter into conflict with Hansa, with very uncertain result.

Russia is likely to meet an enemy double the population and wealth, which is going to smash them back into the Steppe.

Still trying to win the battle Sweden lost 200 years ago? Sorry to burst your bubble, but united Scandinavia isn't going to ever control anything East of Ladoga, unless they conquer Novgorod very early on (sometime around Birger jarl's time). However, early invasion in Novgorod would bring Scandianvians within reach of Mongols, who are at pinnacle of their power and consider Novgorod a dependant polity. Very, very unwise idea.

Still, don't think it's possible for corn to grow further north, so maybe potatos are your best bet.

Corn can't grow in Scandinavia. Period. And, to introduce tatters in Europe, one needs Vinland (at least in form of established Newfoundland colony) to be around. Easly introduction of potatoes is going to drastically change Northeastern Europe, with Novgorod and Lithuania benefitting from it even more than Scandinavians, so Russian Finland and Lithuanian Estonia is at least as likely as Scandiwank.

Edit: Russians never were Steppe people, so it would be pretty hard to beat them back where they never were.

 

[Andrew Hudson]

I thought they dumped their surpuls population on England, Ireland, Normandy and countless other places. They couldn't support a large population that's why the Vikings came here and a lot of other places

 

[Valdemar II]

Corn can't grow in Scandinavia. Period.

Interesting, that must mean that the mais field I have seen this summer was a fatamorgana. Mais has the last 30 years more or less replaced turnip and beet (with the exception of sugar beet) in Denmark.