Scandinavian Netherlands
- Thread starter Fex
- Start date
A lot of Norwegians emigrated to the Netherlands a few centuries back, maybe that could be related?
Delvestius
Banned
This would have been very difficult, as Frisia/Lotharingia was pretty much the heart of the HRE with its capital situated very near at Aachen.
Makes alot of sense, I guess vikings is probably the more realistic timeline of a Scandinavian Netherlands then.
"Rorik or Hrørek was a Danish Viking, who ruled over different parts of Friesland between 841 and 873."
Since other Vikings were able to establish Normandy on the mouth of the Seine, close to important Paris, I guess that a Danish Frisia from OTL Zealand to OTL East Frisia would be possible. But Normandy became quickly culturally French, and it would be probably hard to impossible to avoid the rulers of this Frisland from becoming either Frisian or Frankish in culture and language.
Since other Vikings were able to establish Normandy on the mouth of the Seine, close to important Paris, I guess that a Danish Frisia from OTL Zealand to OTL East Frisia would be possible. But Normandy became quickly culturally French, and it would be probably hard to impossible to avoid the rulers of this Frisland from becoming either Frisian or Frankish in culture and language.
Their culture probably has bits and pieces off both cultures creating a Frisian that is bit different from the one off otl.
So what do you say if the Vikings had become part off the Frisians culture, which is now different from otl. Is there a chance that they could become part off the HRE and maybe expand a bit further like Western Germany and Belgium? By either the people moving there over time creating settlements which join when their own nation when they have grown big or through conquest?
OTL between 826 and 950 large parts of Frisia was ruled by Danish royal family kicked out of Scandinavia due to a power struggle in the wake of the death of king Godfrey 810.
The Danish royalty of Jutland were intermarried with the Frisian royal family so it isn't out of the window. OTL they had the problem of regularly being subjected to Viking raids because of their struggle with the Scandinavian ruling family.
Have the Danish/Frisian family stay in line and that would add Frisia to the Viking bases wrecking havoc on the Franks.
They would probably be absorbed by the HRE post 1000 AD as Normandy was.
The Danish royalty of Jutland were intermarried with the Frisian royal family so it isn't out of the window. OTL they had the problem of regularly being subjected to Viking raids because of their struggle with the Scandinavian ruling family.
Have the Danish/Frisian family stay in line and that would add Frisia to the Viking bases wrecking havoc on the Franks.
They would probably be absorbed by the HRE post 1000 AD as Normandy was.
Although if we still get Danish kings in England too, and then they manage to hold England, Denmark, and Frisia, under a single line of kings, the situation could be interesting...
There was a later connection also.
In the early 12C, Count Charles the Good of Flanders was the son of King Knut IV of Denmark. Ha he escaped assassination in 1127, and later regained the Danish crown, you could have had the beginnings of a link.
Even as late as 1227 Valdemar the Young was married to Berengaria of Portugal whose brother Ferdinand was by then count of Flanders; which to me seems to indicate that dreams of Flanders and perhaps England was alive within the Royal house.
So. There is a possibility that they could hold. Denmark, England and Frisian. But lets say that before the HRE exist would they be able to expand more inland? When the HRE appears and lets say they become part off it would they hold maybe a high rank and are they still able to expand further?
Problem would rather be the Emperor asserting his feudal rights vis-a-vis the duke of Frisia and King of Denmark. OTL the Emperor tried just this on Denmark resultant in the King taking up feudal oath as a Knight of St. Peters and throwing his lot in with the Pope in the Investiture Strife in the end safeguarding his kingdom.
ITTL I could well see the Emperor trying just this but having to consider the actions of his duke when disciplining the King of Denmark and vice versa; could develop into a long running feud where the King and duke both taking up the Papal feudal oath in response.
As the Magyars would also play interference with the Emperors schemes he may well come out second and make room for Frisia expanding into the hinterlands.
ITTL I could well see the Emperor trying just this but having to consider the actions of his duke when disciplining the King of Denmark and vice versa; could develop into a long running feud where the King and duke both taking up the Papal feudal oath in response.
As the Magyars would also play interference with the Emperors schemes he may well come out second and make room for Frisia expanding into the hinterlands.
On paper the region of Frisia was a bit larger than Frisia proper (which at the time included the whole coast from Zeeland to East Frisia).
Roughly speaking it also included modern day Netherlands north of the Rhine.
Anyway I can see those vikings being able to establish their own stem duchy Frisia. Hopefully they'll be able to protect Dorestad (commercial centre; IOTL vikings raids brought its' demise. Utrecht will stay the religious centre, it has been a bishopric since 695, Saint Willibrord was the first bishop and also apostle and archbishop of the Frisians. However Utrecht only became firmly established in 776.
An ambitious ruler of Frisia might be interested in making Utrecht an archbishopric (again, as successor to the archbishop of the Frisians), which will remove it from the archdiocese of Cologne.
On the long run they will be assimilated, but they will leave their mark; like how IOTL this can also be seen with certain dialects in the north of England.
However Frisia didn't a cultured terrain (no polders yet) as the Netherlands of OTL High Middle Ages, the Golden Age and beyond.
Roughly speaking it also included modern day Netherlands north of the Rhine.
Anyway I can see those vikings being able to establish their own stem duchy Frisia. Hopefully they'll be able to protect Dorestad (commercial centre; IOTL vikings raids brought its' demise. Utrecht will stay the religious centre, it has been a bishopric since 695, Saint Willibrord was the first bishop and also apostle and archbishop of the Frisians. However Utrecht only became firmly established in 776.
An ambitious ruler of Frisia might be interested in making Utrecht an archbishopric (again, as successor to the archbishop of the Frisians), which will remove it from the archdiocese of Cologne.
On the long run they will be assimilated, but they will leave their mark; like how IOTL this can also be seen with certain dialects in the north of England.
However Frisia didn't a cultured terrain (no polders yet) as the Netherlands of OTL High Middle Ages, the Golden Age and beyond.
actually all of the Netherlands and Belgium (Luxembourg I am not sure) was part off Frissia and even beyond there. I think somewhere near the area where France and England are the closest together.
Alternate Normans?
If something similar to OTL Normandy happened to the Netherlands, a Scandinavian War Lord given control of that region, and eventually his successors conquering a fair chunk Europe (England, Sicily, parts of Anatolia), what would their cousins over in Holland look like? Would they conquer places extensively all over Europe?
If something similar to OTL Normandy happened to the Netherlands, a Scandinavian War Lord given control of that region, and eventually his successors conquering a fair chunk Europe (England, Sicily, parts of Anatolia), what would their cousins over in Holland look like? Would they conquer places extensively all over Europe?
It's not true. The Belgian coastal areas, Flanders, were Frankish rather than Frisian. Hence the 'Salian' ("By-the-sea") Franks and, eventually, Salic Law...