Say What?!: A President Barry Goldwater Timeline

Great update. Hmmm, how about in dealing with Iran, Goldwater pressures the Shah on human right?

Thanks man. As of right now though, Goldwater has turned a blind eye towards the Shah, as he's busy with Vietnam. However, that's certainly a possibility for the future.
 
With McGovern out, wonder who Barry's oponent's gonna be in '72. How about whoever his oponet is, they try to come down on Barry hard for voting against the Civil Rights act of '64? Also, Shoultz wants Barry to meet with Brezhnev at some point after they both meet Dobrynin.
 
My money would be on Edward Muskie at this point with McGovern out. Presuming he can keep his medical history private, he might make a half decent candidate. Henry Jackson or Shirley Chishom would be two other possibilities.
 

pnyckqx

Banned
Yeah, thanks for mentioning Vietnam Primer to me, I had never heard of it before you mentioned it. And thanks for those suggestions, I'll definitely take those into mind. :)
You're welcome. When it comes to the Vietnam conflict, the knowledge base was out there, but it was ignored.

Perhaps one of the best people was retired Lt. Col John Paul Vann, who ended up as senior civilian advisor in Vietnam before his death in a helicopter crash in 1972. While i did disagree with some of his conclusions --the ARVN was hopelessly corrupt and needed to look hard to find good leadership--many of his basic ideas were right on target. Of course he was ignored.

Vann actually commanded combat troops as a civilian during the battle of Kontum. He was the only civilian to receive the Distinguished Service Cross in Vietnam (posthumously) --Joe Galloway received the Bronze Star with Valor device for his actions in the Ai Drang valley made famous in the recent book and movie.

Vann's most famous quote about the conflict was We don't have 12 years experience in Vietnam. We have one year's experience twelve times over.

That statement was the nut and shell of the US failure in Vietnam and that of the US military establishment in general. It tends to hide and never discuss it's bad ideas.

It is this institutional forgetfulness at the Pentagon that Bradley has to break through if the Vietnam conflict is to succeed ITTL. Bradley is the man for the job. During WWII, Bradley, perceived as a 'soldier's general' actually fired a dozen subordinate commanding generals for their failures. He was a pretty good hatchet man. He'd have no problem telling Pentagon beaurocrats to pack their shit and get out when they try to interfere with reforms and continue to build their own kingdoms in the defense establishment. It does require a more 'hands on' role than previous SEC DEF's have had to use. Still, Bradley is working for a President who was always open to innovation and different ways of thinking, contra the public perception of him. The smart way to bet ITTL is that the President will back Bradley 100%.

Incidentally, it was Vann who advised Weyand to pull back his forces from the border area. He had sensed that a major offensive was coming that resulted in Tet 68.
 

pnyckqx

Banned
Any more thoughts on my latest installment?
Domestically, Goldwater has to break the popularity of Keynsian economics in order to get any part of his agenda passed. At this time, there is a strong emotional tie to the New Deal and FDR among the older generation. That has to be discredited to some extent for the free market agenda to succeed this early in American history.

Perhaps some work with the thought of the OTL Von Mises institute might be in order. It has to be broken down into 'common sense' statements to be palatable to the American Public though. At this time, there is no way that the thoughts of Von Mises gets a fair hearing without the American people demanding such a hearing.

Von Mises thinking has been most successful among the younger generation OTL. Since the voting age is now 18 ITTL, the Goldwater administration has to speak more directly to the younger generation.
 
I like the new update! I hope President Goldwater can find a way to drum up support for the two bills in the future!

I do have a question, will Sen. Barry Goldwater Jr play a bigger role in this TL?
 
I like the new update! I hope President Goldwater can find a way to drum up support for the two bills in the future!

I do have a question, will Sen. Barry Goldwater Jr play a bigger role in this TL?

Thanks! :D To answer your question, yes, though Barry Jr. isn't a Senator (yet). Barry Jr's a Representative in California's 27th district. As for what his bigger role entails, you'll have to wait to find out: it'll be interesting for sure. ;)
 
I don't think it's possible for Goldwater to achieve Reagan's level of deregulation because the New Deal is still in public memory and America hasn't been traumatized by the 60's and 70's.
 

pnyckqx

Banned
I don't think it's possible for Goldwater to achieve Reagan's level of deregulation because the New Deal is still in public memory and America hasn't been traumatized by the 60's and 70's.
Exactly.

Goldwater has to do the 'mirror image' of what was accomplished OTL in that he has to take his domestic ideas to the younger generation and let them carry it to popularity. People who lived through the Great Depression are still a bit shell shocked at this time. i had relatives who still took measures to avoid a repeat performance of the Depression until their death in the mid 70's They never forgot.

One of the more popular shows OTL was started by a woman in her 90's on YouTube. It was a cooking show that taught the lessons for meal preparation that she learned during the Great Depression.

Even though studies show a different and mixed story about FDR's measures to combat the Depression, the strong emotional attachment to the man and the policies ARE political realities that must be addressed.
 
Thank you. :) If you guys want specific elements from this one to be in the second one, let me know (and if you don't want specific elements from this one to be in the second one, let me know as well)!
 

pnyckqx

Banned
UPDATE:

I was looking back at this timeline, and while I liked parts of it, I realized that my timeline was too kind to Barry Goldwater in a time when conservatism wasn't the norm. Without further ado, I bring you this new and revamped version that will hopefully be more realistic and more enjoyable :D: https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=177244
Lookin forward to it Han. If i don't get a chance to talk to you, have a good holiday season. i'll try to reply to your last PM as i get time.
 
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