Saxons, not Angles?

Discussion in 'Alternate History Discussion: Before 1900' started by Scarecrow, Aug 8, 2005.

  1. Scarecrow Dieudonné

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    just a little linguistic AH, with the Saxons of Anglo-Saxon fame in England be "remembered" instead of the Angles, if that makes sence. so Since Angland = England, do we end up with Saxoland? the Saxican Church? :confused:
     
  2. pa_dutch Member

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    For some reason I'm thinking it might be called "Sexland", considering the place names Wessex, Sussex, Essex, etc, but that name sounds more appropriate for an adult-oriented store of some kind than a nation. Maybe "Saexland"?
     
  3. fortyseven Mastermind

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    maybe there weren't any Angles at all, just Saxons and Jutes and Scots.
     
  4. Redbeard Banned

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    yeah, it could as well have been Jute-Saxons and then the big island would be called "New Jutland" ?

    Regards

    Steffen Redbeard - born in "Old Jutland" and went eastward to (Old) Zealand.
     
  5. chronos Banned

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    One reason appears to be the decision of the remaining Angle nation to migrate en masse from Angeln around 550 under their two kings and passing up the Humber to the Trent and settling in what became Mercia.
     
  6. fortyseven Mastermind

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    Who moved into Angeln?
     
  7. chronos Banned

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    Angeln is described as almost empty and deserted. Presumably Saxons and jutes later moved in.
     
  8. Tyr air in space

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    Don't forget the Frisians. They are the most important, they were the ones who brought English over.
     
  9. Wendell Wendell

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    Good bread and good cheese is good English and good Fries. :D
     
  10. Scarecrow Dieudonné

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    no jokes about a shop with the name Sexland? :( im dissapointed
     
  11. fortyseven Mastermind

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    pa_dutch did.

     
  12. Scarecrow Dieudonné

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    i was hoping for a picture of a shop called sexland, but of well. a man can dream though, a man can dream...
     
  13. Melvin Loh Member

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    Hmmm, got another interesting POD- how could there be retained to today the various different accents among the Angles, Saxons and Jutes, or alternatively how could ppl from different parts of England still be today speaking related but distinct languages- ie the Norfolk dialect is still spoken as are the native tongues of Cornwall and Northumbria ?
     
  14. Satyrane Yes-man

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    I gather the various English dialects were pretty much unrecognisable until well into the 15th Century (if you compare the Gawain poet with Langland or Chaucer, for example).

    Caxton's printing press is meant to have been one of the big unifying factors, I think, along with writers like Chaucer adopting the vernacular as a literary language.

    So ... could we continue to use Latin as the main language for formal communication, and keep separate dialects for local communications? Perhaps by making education in Latin more widespread among the peasants.
     
  15. Tyr air in space

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    This was the case until quite recently.
    Cornish only became exinct in the 1700s after a active effort by the government ot get rid of it.
    Northumbrian gaelic too just went ou sometime in the first half of the 2nd millenium.
    Many regional accents of English were unique until the advent of TV. The accent of my local area is the closest thing to pure English you'll get outside of the Netherlands, until the advent of TV this was even more so with many more unique words then we have today.
     
  16. Melvin Loh Member

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    So, Leej, which part of the country are you in ?

    Yeah, i can imagine how much of an impact factors like Caxton's press and TV would have on the development of regional accents. Similarly, Australian English evolved from 18th C Cockney, which was the predominant accent of the convicts transported to Australia from the 1st Fleet onwards. Unique Australian English words and phrases like "Gday mate" and "fair dinkum" were transposed from 18th C English, and were retained in speech donwunder as such terms died out or were modified in the British Isles thruout the next 2 centuries.
     
  17. Tyr air in space

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    :D Never point it out about the convicts to a actual cockney though. It doesn't work.

    I'm from the NE, up around Newcastle/Durham. Here we didn't get all of the French influences of the southners, our influences came from the vikings so our accent remained Germanic. Then we got a lot of German immigrants from the 17th century on.
     
  18. Flocculencio Fabian Socialist Donor

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    Actually even modern english accents are very differentiated as Leej pointed out.

    Satyrane: The trouble with Latin as a genuine lingua franca is that nobody really had the resources to teach peasants Latin. A general education system is hard to set up in an era of rigid class distinctions and subsistence agriculture.

    Melvin: As Satyrane said, after Caxton, the dialect of the Home Counties, being the dialect of the court and the civil service made itself the premier written form of the language and hence the outlying regions began to fall in line, at least in print.

    As for the "accents" of the Angles, Saxons and Jutes, you have to remember that they weren't speaking English- Anglo-Saxon hadn't evolved into English yet. You might be able to find some correlation between, say, the Notrhumbrian dialect of Anglo-Saxon and modern Geordie but it's all just a bit too hazy and hard to trace really.
     
  19. Tyr air in space

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    For what old English sounded like go to modern day Frisia in the Netherlands. Its a still living minority language there.
     
  20. Rick Robinson What happened to The Future?

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    Back to the original thread question, remember that the Saxons were - and presumably still are - remembered by Celtic speakers: Sassenach and Saesun (sp?). Presumably the Saxons were the first to show up as prominent troublemakers - hence Count of the Saxon Shore - so to the locals that became the generic name for all Germanic speakers.

    What the later settlers called themselves, and how they all came to call themselves Engle, is lost in obscurity. Bede is not reliable for events generations before his own time; he's passing on a mix of legends and intelligent guesswork.

    But (at least as of when I took History of English, many years ago), there was never any such language as "Anglo-Saxon," or people who called themselves Anglo-Saxons. The title Rex Anglosaxonum is best translated as "King of the English Saxons;" the dynasty claims Saxon roots, but the people it rules are English.

    IIRC, the earliest (probable) reference to the English language - at any rate, the language of Germanic speakers in Britain - is to lingua theodisca, meaning simply language of the people; the word survives as Deutsch and Dutch. But the word the "Anglo-Saxons" used for their language, from their earliest written sources, is Englisc, so they were evidently all calling themselves English by the time anyone recorded what they called themselves.

    Still, we can imagine that this mixed bag of Germanic tribesmen could just as easily have taken to calling themselves collectively Saxons, since that was what everyone else called them.

    "There will always be a Sexland."

    "Sexland expects that every man will do his duty."


    :D :D :eek:

    -- Rick