Save the Indian Motorcycle

They had an inline four, with shaft drive, or they develop an OHV V-twin, or they could go Guzzi style with transverse V-twin with shaft.
That's what I wish Indian would build today, not some clone of the HD model with a V-twin, but instead build their in-line fours with shaft drive. They were tank-like reliably tough and good performers.

However, IIRC Indian Fours were chain driven, not shaft fours like the Nimbus. Below is a fake Four with shaft and NSU car engine.

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Why did the military contract impact Indian in a negatieve way?:confused:

Because they expanded to much during the war and afterwards had too high overhead costs. The Domestic market wasn't large enough to make up the difference.

To elaborate: When the US entered the Great War in 1917 it was expected the war, and production contracts would last into 1919 or even 1920. Indian, like many US companies tooled up for two years worth of production, stocking materials (often at premium prices) hiring extra skilled labor at premium wages, and advanced parts production. The contracts were sloppy and often done in a patriotic fever.

When the Germans collapsed in late 1918 there was a enormous pressure from Congress to cancel the wartime contracts instantly. Fiscal conservatives, and anti military groups wanted the military expendentures ended instantly. The US government simply stopped paying & the contracts were effectively terminated. This left US business holding a huge inventory of material they could not rapidly sell for any profit. They were also often indebted for start up costs they had expected to pay for out of the full two year production run. There was also a surplus of labor on the factory floors.

It is correct some of the material, production capacity, and labor could be redirected to civilian oriented production. But, this takes time, there was additional cost in redirection, & not all the material or labor fit. That reduced the value/price of the redirected items. All this contributed to a waste in US capitol investment postwar, that dragged on deep into the 1920s.

A long term effect came when the US begain rearmament in 1939-41. Many businesses were headed by boards & managers who remembered the contract terminations of 1919. Some simply refused to consider US government contracts, others in 1939-40 took on the much more favorable British and French contracts, those who took on US government contracts held out for large advance payments to pay up front for set up costs, and gave high estimates for final prices. The War Dept refused to budge on Army purchasing policy of the previous two decades. Between the two rearmament of the US Army was further bollixed as contracts took endless months to negotiate & manufactors acted only when they had the cash in hand. It took a whole series of catastrophes from the collapse of France to Japans surprise attack to change the attitudes.

Indian Motorcyle suffered from the 1919 contract terminations, the speculative fevor of the 1920s, the Depression, & the 1939-41 rearmament problems like everyone else. Its poor management aggravated those problems.
 
1941 prototype Indian 800cc OHV 4-cyl. with shaft drive. Also featuring telescopic forks, rather ahead of its time.

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1941 prototype Indian 800cc OHC 4-cyl. with shaft drive. Also featuring telescopic forks, rather ahead of its time.

VERY cool! It's too bad that the 1936 & 37 Indian 4 cylinder models did a good job of damaging the reputation of Indian 4-cylinder motorcycles. It's baffling that the engineers "improved" the bike for the 1936 model year, by putting the exhaust ports at the top of the engine. Sure it helped exhaust scavenging (and modestly increased horsepower), but it also put those nice, hot exhaust headers close to the rider's leg, creating the potential of burning it! As a result, of that little design change, the 1936 & 37 4-cylinder Indians (nicknamed Upside Down Indians, due to the fact that the exhaust over inlet configuration, was "upside down" to the inlet over exhaust configuration that almost all 4-cylinder motorcycles up to late 1935 [when the 1936 model was released for sale] had used), was a major sales flop. I don't think that Indian's 4-cylinder motorcycle sales ever really recovered after the Upside Down Indian was made.

http://www.motorcycleclassics.com/c...s/1937-indian-four-zmsz15jazhur.aspx?PageId=1
 
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VERY cool! It's too bad that the 1936 & 37 Indian 4 cylinder models did a good job of damaging the reputation of Indian 4-cylinder motorcycles. It's baffling that the engineers "improved" the bike for the 1936 model year, by putting the exhaust ports at the top of the engine. Sure it helped exhaust scavenging (and modestly increased horsepower), but it also put those nice, hot exhaust headers close to the riders leg, creating the potential of burning it! As a result, of that little design change, the 1936 & 37 4-cylinder Indians (nicknamed Upside Down Indians, due to the fact that the exhaust over inlet configuration, was "upside down" to the inlet over exhaust configuration that almost all 4-cylinder motorcycles up to late 1935 [when the 1936 model was released for sale] had used), was a major sales flop. I don't think that Indian's 4-cylinder motorcycle sales ever really recovered after the Upside Down Indian was made.

http://www.motorcycleclassics.com/c...s/1937-indian-four-zmsz15jazhur.aspx?PageId=1

The Indian Four was a progression of the over-under chain-drive four from Henderson, which was bought and closed by Schwinn. The 1941 prototype was perhaps a step in some direction, not taken. If you don't take steps, you die in your own excrement eventually, and they did.

You aren't allowed to ride a motorcycle until you graduate from short pants. I rode from 1965 until 2007, and now, I'm back in short pants again. Funny. My first, a Suzuki 80, had a high exhaust pipe. My Yammerhammer YDS-3C , JT-1 Six-Days replica, Can-Am 175 and Yamaha IT-175 all had high systems. I rode many other bikes with high systems as well. I competed in enduro competition, and found hot pipes annoying only when my pants got wet. That usually happened around Mile 1.6, but you had to pay the price for ground clearance.

So all the Indians were crap. Why are we trying to save the company again? The logo has endured. Why not leave it at that?

Another minor factoid. A German motorcycle was scooped as war reparations to become the BSA Bantam/Bushman and Harley Hummer. Why Harley?

Had Indian management participated in Operation Paperclip, they could have scooped Walter Kaaden, Daniel Zimmermann and Erich Wolf from Germany and developed a right fine high-speed scooter themselves.

PS. My JT-1 and Can-Am both had chain oilers. I used the oil injection tanks as reservoirs.
 
The Indian Four was a progression of the over-under chain-drive four from Henderson, which was bought and closed by Schwinn. The 1941 prototype was perhaps a step in some direction, not taken. If you don't take steps, you die in your own excrement eventually, and they did.

You aren't allowed to ride a motorcycle until you graduate from short pants. I rode from 1965 until 2007, and now, I'm back in short pants again. Funny. My first, a Suzuki 80, had a high exhaust pipe. My Yammerhammer YDS-3C , JT-1 Six-Days replica, Can-Am 175 and Yamaha IT-175 all had high systems. I rode many other bikes with high systems as well. I competed in enduro competition, and found hot pipes annoying only when my pants got wet. That usually happened around Mile 1.6, but you had to pay the price for ground clearance.

So all the Indians were crap. Why are we trying to save the company again? The logo has endured. Why not leave it at that?

Another minor factoid. A German motorcycle was scooped as war reparations to become the BSA Bantam/Bushman and Harley Hummer. Why Harley?

Had Indian management participated in Operation Paperclip, they could have scooped Walter Kaaden, Daniel Zimmermann and Erich Wolf from Germany and developed a right fine high-speed scooter themselves.

PS. My JT-1 and Can-Am both had chain oilers. I used the oil injection tanks as reservoirs.


My first bike (back in 1979) was a 2 stroke dual purpose (a Kawasaki KE250), so I know where you're coming from with regards to the "wear pants and the high mounted exhaust system isn't an issue" solution. The problem with the Upside Down Indian, is that that they didn't put a decent heat shield on the motorcycle exhaust, and the exhaust was also mounted poorly, hence even if you wore pants, there was still a risk of getting your leg burned.

As for "Paperclip: The Motorcycle Edition" - yeah it would have been something if Indian had gotten Walter Kaaden. Walter (due experience gaind from his work in WW2 on the V1's pulse jet exhaust), was IMO, the main developer of 2-stroke expansion chambers, that allowed tuning of exhaust pressure waves, for better exhaust scavenging, and significant horsepower increases. Walter was THE MAN responsible for making MZ a world contender in 250cc grand prix motorcycle racing in the 60s. His 2 stroke data (smuggled out of East Germany by MZ works rider Ernst Degner in the early 60s, when he defected, after being offered a job/ride by Suzuki), was instrumental in creating the Japanese 2 stroke motrcycles that went on to dominate grand prix motorcycle racing for decades. Considering what Walter Kaaden did with 2 stroke motorcycles for a backward company in a repressive country, imagine what he could have done for Indian - a company that despite it's problems, had far more resources to work with, than MZ had.
 
So we have a reason for an aftermarket manufacturer like Hooker Headers or Paul Dunstall to start up a product line to fix up Indian shortcomings, but still no reason to save Indian itself. Hmmph.

One night years ago, a Swiss couple with some kirsch schnapps and a BSA Lightning invited us to listen to the "Sounds of Nurburgring", which featured Ernst Degner on a 50cc 16 speed Suzuki. I developed an impression, but nobody ever asked me to do it twice.
 
Been busy saving Indians. I've also noticed that someone is saving Brough Superior, if you have too much money. You can also buy brand new replica Egli Vincents today. If you kept your old iron long enough, it seems that you can get at least a quarter mil at auction, no problem, even with a flat tire and a bent rim.

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