Sardinia vs. Austria

Say France remained on the sidelines in 1859 or 1860, could Sardinia (assisted by Garibaldi led patriots, some minor Italian states and a Kossuth led Hungarian Legion) defeat Austria by themselves? What if Prussia mobilized and threatened Bavaria, while gaining a guarantee of Russian neutrality? If need be we can add in a general Hungarian revolt and perhaps some trouble with the newly formed nation of Romania. So would this be enough to push Austria out of Italy and perhaps even weaken her influence on the minor German states? I don't want a general collapse of the Austrian Empire nor am I looking for a larger European war. But I'd be happy with Italian unification, the Papal States can wait their turn, without their having to give up Nice and Savoy; coupled with a major increase in Prussian influence vis-a-vis Austria.

Thanks in advance,
Benjamin
 
I really, really doubt Sardinia could go it alone against Austria (and they had tried doing so before), short of extraordinary circumstances.
 
The war came about specifically because Napoleon III had become heavily pro-Italian (there was the assasination attempt of 1858, and the economic downturn in France, and he wanted to get something out of his pseudo-entente with Russia) and Cavour was able to take advantage of this. Without France, there isn't a war.

Say the assasination attempt had suceeded, I don't know what might have happened...
 
The war came about specifically because Napoleon III had become heavily pro-Italian (there was the assasination attempt of 1858, and the economic downturn in France, and he wanted to get something out of his pseudo-entente with Russia) and Cavour was able to take advantage of this. Without France, there isn't a war.

Say the assasination attempt had suceeded, I don't know what might have happened...

Billiant thread idea!
 
The war came about specifically because Napoleon III had become heavily pro-Italian (there was the assasination attempt of 1858, and the economic downturn in France, and he wanted to get something out of his pseudo-entente with Russia) and Cavour was able to take advantage of this. Without France, there isn't a war.

Say the assasination attempt had suceeded, I don't know what might have happened...

Yes, I know all this. But in my War of the Two Commonwealths TL things go a bit differently. To quote myself...

Buchanan continued on and began reading an article describing the increased tensions occurring between France and Great Britain. Ever since it had been discovered that that bombs used by Italian national Felice Orsini in his bungled, and as it turned out suicidal, assassination attempt had been built in Britain relations between the two nations had been strained. This coupled with the ongoing fighting in Indochina, disputes with Britain over the conduct of the Second Opium War and the assassination of Prince Napoleon while serving as governor of Algeria had put Emperor Louis Napoleon on edge. His recent Naval Building Plan made Buchanan’s proposed Naval Act look like a child’s effort and had worked to further erode the relations of the two preeminent European powers.

But I don't think this would have prevented Italian nationalists from attempting to force Austria out of Italy. Men like Garibaldi would have continued to provoke Austria and rouse Italian nationalism. Cavour probably would have wanted to delay any direct confrontation until he had the backing of one of the major powers. Unfortunately, if Garibaldi had moved his Hunters of the Alps through the Papal lands (Tuscany, Lombardy, Parma and Modena) thier almost certainly would have been pro-Unification uprisings. While France may have dispatched a small force to protect Rome, in this situation it is doubtful that Napoleon would have had the support for full intervention. Austria, though, would have had to respond as popular uprisings were bound to occur in their Italian possessions.

With central Italy in revolt against the Pope and Austria and Garibaldi leading a growing legion working towards Italian unification, I don't think Sardinia could have afforded to sit back and do nothing. Cavour was not a huge fan of Garibaldi, though the animosity would not be near the level it was in OTL since Cavour had not handed Nice over to the French, and would not have wanted him in control of a united Italy. So I think Cavour would have brought Sardinia into the fray. They may have had limited British support as the Brits had assisted Garibaldi in OTL.

Austria on the other hand would have been in a difficult position. Fighting a confused war in the rugged terrain of northern Italy is bad enough. They also feared another round of Hungarian revolts, which Kossuth had wanted to assist by forming a Hungarian Legion and landing it on the Dalmatian coast. Romania too was hoping to profit from Austria's miss fortunes. But perhaps most importantly Prussia looked to expand their influence in the German states and if they mobilized their Army the Austrian would have had to confront them or accept a drastic loss of prestige.

Overall, I don't think Austrian victory is so clear cut. It may come down to having to make hard decisions. Is it worth losing Hungary in order to retain the Italian lands? How important is it to keep Prussia in check, and is it even possible at this point?

Benjamin
 
Yes, I know all this. But in my War of the Two Commonwealths TL things go a bit differently. To quote myself...

Hum. Personally, I think this scenario underestimates Napoleon III's Anglophilia: the French press raised a fracas, but Napoleon III himself continued his pro-British policy, and we for our part weren't particularly interested in Indochina. 1860, with the trade treaty and before Nice and Savoy created suspicion of Wicked Bonapartist Schemes, was a high point for our relations with the Second Empire.

Some other diplomatic incident might strain things further, but I doubt it would trigger such a U-Turn. Still, that's besides the topic of the thread, so let's leave that.

But I don't think this would have prevented Italian nationalists from attempting to force Austria out of Italy. Men like Garibaldi would have continued to provoke Austria and rouse Italian nationalism. Cavour probably would have wanted to delay any direct confrontation until he had the backing of one of the major powers.

Oh, I'm certainly not saying political Italian nationalism isn't going to continue its efforts. In fact, I'd be very interested to see what would happen if Garibaldi had set off to take advantage of the perennial discontent of the Sicilian and Neopolitan peasants and the monarchy had collapsed as OTL with the Austrian boot still firmly planted in the north.

Unfortunately, if Garibaldi had moved his Hunters of the Alps through the Papal lands (Tuscany, Lombardy, Parma and Modena) thier almost certainly would have been pro-Unification uprisings.

Um, those lands weren't papal. Or are you saying the papal lands and the bracketed ones would have experiences uprisings? If so, sorry.

Anyway, remember that Garibaldi, all around great guy though he was, couldn't win them all. I'm pretty sure the Latium was as supportive of unfication as any other part of central Italy, but nevertheless relatively small forces saw him off at Mentana. Not everywhere was the decrepit Neapolitan regime.

With Austrian forces-in-being still there to keep any foreign backers out, I think a completely private enterprise against central Italy by Garibaldi would be one of his several heroic failures.

While France may have dispatched a small force to protect Rome, in this situation it is doubtful that Napoleon would have had the support for full intervention.

Napoleon was kicking himself for his involvement in Rome, and never got involved with anything outside the Latium, its true.

Austria, though, would have had to respond as popular uprisings were bound to occur in their Italian possessions.

Although I do think Austria would have protected all the central Italian states or at least helped them to protect themselves, I must point that Radetzky's dictatorship was surprisingly effective. Two Sicilies it was not.

With central Italy in revolt against the Pope and Austria and Garibaldi leading a growing legion working towards Italian unification, I don't think Sardinia could have afforded to sit back and do nothing. Cavour was not a huge fan of Garibaldi, though the animosity would not be near the level it was in OTL since Cavour had not handed Nice over to the French, and would not have wanted him in control of a united Italy. So I think Cavour would have brought Sardinia into the fray.

Cavour was always motivated by extremely pragmatic calculations and he felt able to stand aloof from Garibaldine ventures over Rome twice. His problem is that if he fights a war with Austria, he will lose, and he knows it.

They may have had limited British support as the Brits had assisted Garibaldi in OTL.

British support would consist of a lot of hand-wringing and encouraging compromise, but we wouldn't shoot at any Austrians, and that's what cavour needs.

Napoleon III, however, would actually find it pretty hard to sit by and let Garibaldi be beaten, Plombieres or not. He might true and foist some face-saving retreat on the Austrians and tie up one of his wishful schemes to wriggle out of his commitment to the Pope.

Austria on the other hand would have been in a difficult position. Fighting a confused war in the rugged terrain of northern Italy is bad enough.

They managed okay in 1866, with half their army being shot to bits in Bohemia. The sad fact is that whatever support Italian unification may enjoy, it lacks any Italian army than can take on Austria.

They also feared another round of Hungarian revolts, which Kossuth had wanted to assist by forming a Hungarian Legion and landing it on the Dalmatian coast.

I'm rather dubious about the prospects of that scheme. Kossuth had never even managed to be recognised as regent by all the Hungarian emigres; his disconnect with opinion back in the country was huge, and he never recognised the Ausgleich.

1859 was a differant time from 1860: it was the Italian war that ended neo-absolutism. In 1859, Hungary was de-jure still under military governance, IIRC, and certainly the national movement was much more tightly controlled, and the Serbs and Romanians closer to the ears of Vienna. I think anything in the style of 1867 - that is, organised aristocratic tax-evasion - would be frankly dealt with, and the time for mass peasant revolt had come and gone in 1848 with the abolition of feudalism. Any volunteer band in Croatia would of course have to get through the Croats, which was beyond the men of 1848.

Romania too was hoping to profit from Austria's miss fortunes.

Of course, that implies Hungarians and Romanians having a common enemy, which both would go out of their weay to avoid. ;)

In seriousness, the Romanian movement inside Austria was young and, assuming a Hungarian revolt or the suspicion of one, loyalist. As for the Romanian state itself, less than a year old and incompletely recognised, it was wary of adventure.

But perhaps most importantly Prussia looked to expand their influence in the German states and if they mobilized their Army the Austrian would have had to confront them or accept a drastic loss of prestige.

The Prussians aren't likley to dive into a was. There were lots of contradictory trends at work in Berlin: Schleinitz, for instance, sabotaged every anti-Austrian measure. If Austria is overstretched but clearly winning, the Schleinitz policy of gaining influence north of the Main as rewards for supporting Austria elsewhere makes a lot of sense, and he is after all the foreign minister. The generals are unlikely to get their way without the French army at large; and nationalist sentiment was fairly indifferant.

Overall, I don't think Austrian victory is so clear cut. It may come down to having to make hard decisions. Is it worth losing Hungary in order to retain the Italian lands? How important is it to keep Prussia in check, and is it even possible at this point?

Benjamin

I doubt it. Winning a military victory against both Italian and Hungarian nationalism whilst scaring Prussia into submission was not beyon Austria in 1848-1850. Prussia a lot stronger now, but also more given to a pro-Austrian course, and I suspect Hungary of being a damp squib.
 
True to all of that and right now I'm just fishing. In my TL I've set some things in motion and like real history, I don't have much of a clue as to how they will turn out.

--Orisini is dead while trying to blow Napoleon up. He only took along the carriage driver and a servant but he never got the chance to write his sad-sack letter to Napoleon promoting the Italian cause.

--The French press is fuming over the fact that Orisini's bombs were made in Britain.

--France has committed ever more troops to Algeria following the assassination of Prince Napoleon who was serving as governor there.

--And France is further angered at Britain for coming to a separate agreement with Mexico and the US regarding the large amount of money Mexico owed to the nations of Europe. [This bit is elsewhere in the TL]

--Garibaldi has raised a force of about 10,000 men and is marching through the northern states of Italy promoting unification, overthrowing minor nobles and gathering an Army.

--Kossuth has raised funds in the US and elsewhere and is now sailing with a shipload of arms and volunteers for Italy and or the Dalmatian coast.

Given these occurrences I'm just wondering what would be the most likely course of events in Europe.

Thanks,
Benjamin
 
Say France remained on the sidelines in 1859 or 1860, could Sardinia (assisted by Garibaldi led patriots, some minor Italian states and a Kossuth led Hungarian Legion) defeat Austria by themselves? What if Prussia mobilized and threatened Bavaria, while gaining a guarantee of Russian neutrality? If need be we can add in a general Hungarian revolt and perhaps some trouble with the newly formed nation of Romania. So would this be enough to push Austria out of Italy and perhaps even weaken her influence on the minor German states? I don't want a general collapse of the Austrian Empire nor am I looking for a larger European war. But I'd be happy with Italian unification, the Papal States can wait their turn, without their having to give up Nice and Savoy; coupled with a major increase in Prussian influence vis-a-vis Austria.

Thanks in advance,
Benjamin
I'm sorry to say no, they could not.
In such a situation, hahing ruled out france, only a UK direct intervention (One the british would not dream to do) could make italy a nation
 
Say France remained on the sidelines in 1859 or 1860, could Sardinia (assisted by Garibaldi led patriots, some minor Italian states and a Kossuth led Hungarian Legion) defeat Austria by themselves? What if Prussia mobilized and threatened Bavaria, while gaining a guarantee of Russian neutrality? If need be we can add in a general Hungarian revolt and perhaps some trouble with the newly formed nation of Romania. So would this be enough to push Austria out of Italy and perhaps even weaken her influence on the minor German states? I don't want a general collapse of the Austrian Empire nor am I looking for a larger European war. But I'd be happy with Italian unification, the Papal States can wait their turn, without their having to give up Nice and Savoy; coupled with a major increase in Prussian influence vis-a-vis Austria.

Thanks in advance,
Benjamin

The chance for a unification of Italy without the intervention of foreign powers had come (and gone) in 1848, when Austria's position was really weak. No chance it would be realized in 1859, also because there is no chance that Cavour would allow Piedmont to be suckered into another loosing war. Quite possibly there would be insurrections in the Duchies and in the Papal States, where the repression of liberalism was very hard (but I don't think Tuscany would be involved). If there is any kind of insurrection, Garibaldi will be there (and possibly he'll get some under-the-table support from Piedmont), but in the end it will be a repetition of 1848-49: the Austrian will repress the insurrections, and the status-quo-qnte will be restored, somehow.

However, given Nappy's inclinations and proclivities, it's quite obvious that he's willing to stir the pot in Italy: obviosly his idea is not to create a unified Italy, but just to push the Austrians out of the door and create a client Northern Italian kingdom: therefore there must be some major POD for France not to intervene, and the only one I can really believe is Nappy dieing in the Orsini bombing. I'm not sure which way France will go if the emperor dies and the crown goes to a minor, under a council of regents.

This does not put paid to the Italian unification though. My take is that it will happen sometime in the 1860s, when Prussia will unavoidably have to face Austria for the control of the German states.
 
Top