Samsonow, Rennenkampf & Hoffmann

Anderman

Donor
After reading through some older threads about the battle of Tannenberg i found this link

http://www.militaryhistoryonline.com/wwi/articles/tannenberg.aspx#


and the articles stated

"russian historians documented that on no occasion did General Rennenkampf and General Samsonov ever get into a violent dispute or even have the opportunity to do so."

Did Max Hoffmann this episode simply up ? Hoffmann was the german observer during the war between Russia and Japan, so he could have observed the fight.
And i remember that in another thread somebody wrote that his fight happened in Harbin in front of a japanese delagation.

Somebody in this forum wrote that Brusilow left the court of warsaw of so vicious because of dispute Samsonow and Rennkampf?

Was what was the real case ?

thanks :)
 

Deleted member 1487

After reading through some older threads about the battle of Tannenberg i found this link

http://www.militaryhistoryonline.com/wwi/articles/tannenberg.aspx#


and the articles stated

"russian historians documented that on no occasion did General Rennenkampf and General Samsonov ever get into a violent dispute or even have the opportunity to do so."

Did Max Hoffmann this episode simply up ? Hoffmann was the german observer during the war between Russia and Japan, so he could have observed the fight.
And i remember that in another thread somebody wrote that his fight happened in Harbin in front of a japanese delagation.

Somebody in this forum wrote that Brusilow left the court of warsaw of so vicious because of dispute Samsonow and Rennkampf?

Was what was the real case ?

thanks :)

It seems he did. I've seen recently several authors claim that it was a myth that there was a conflict between the men. Its an interesting story and heightens the importance of Hoffmann's contribution to the battle, as he was very bitter he didn't get credit for the success, which he actually deserves less credit for than he claimed. As it was the plan for Tannenberg was pretty much a textbook operation of what was war gamed for defending Prussia in case of Russian invasion and the actual orders and plans were developed under Prittwitz before he was replaced by Hindenburg with his CoS in conjunction with Hoffmann, his operations officers. When Prittwitz and his CoS were replaced Hoffmann was the only guy left who was involved in planning Tannenberg and in fact the operation was already in motion when Hindenburg and Ludendorff showed up, pretty much just approving the plan.

Hoffmann needs to be understood as a primadonna every bit as much as his commanders, though it was he who brought the brains the bunch. Nevertheless Hoffmann was very interested in trumpeting his accomplishments too, as he craved publicity and I wouldn't put it past him to make up the story about Samsonov and Rennenkampf to emphasize his own role in planning Tannenberg.
 

OS fan

Banned
This article lacks access to the footnotes, so we cannot check them.

Obviously the story would put the Czarist army into a bad light, which is why some people dislike it.

After all, it is very well possible that the event happened, but the Russian army decided not to spread the news, for good reasons. If Hoffmann was the only German there (quite possible), it might be that the story was true, but he was the only witness willing to speak about the event.
 
Hoffmann was observer on the Japanese side; the only Russians he saw during this time were prisoners and corpses. - But he worked in the Russian section of the GGS for some time after the Russo-Japanese War and may have picked up the story then, which doesn't make it something he witnessed himself.
 
whether the fight happened or not, the ultimate blame for the debacle at Tanneberg falls on only two people:

1. The Czar for his full mobilization, stop, partial mobilization, stop, full mobilization bullshit which completely screwed up the jump off for the offensive and saw the Northern front operating without a lot of their equipment (especially the field kitchens)
2. Jalinsky who refused Samsonov's requests to even stop let alone pull back when he repeatedly advised that his flanks were being rolled up. Jalinsky was a complete asshat of the highest order
 

Anderman

Donor
This article lacks access to the footnotes, so we cannot check them.

Obviously the story would put the Czarist army into a bad light, which is why some people dislike it.

After all, it is very well possible that the event happened, but the Russian army decided not to spread the news, for good reasons. If Hoffmann was the only German there (quite possible), it might be that the story was true, but he was the only witness willing to speak about the event.

The footnotes are there

http://www.militaryhistoryonline.com/wwi/articles/tannenberg.aspx#
 
I've had a look into Hoffmann's writings; the passage is found in "The War of the Lost Opportunities", and Hoffmann calls it a rumour, which he cites because it may help to explain why Rennenkampf didn't try to save Samsonov and his army.
He explains that he had heard about personal enmity between Samsonov and Rennenkampf, which dated back to the Battle of Liauyang, where Samsonov as commander of a Cossack division was successfully defending a coal mine district - but eventually was forced to retreat, because Rennenkampf, who commanded the forces at the Russian right wing, did just nothing.
According to this story, there had been a vociferous clash between both men on Mukden rail station.

Hoffmann was fluent in Russian (he had a diploma as interpreter) and he had worked in the Russian section of the GGS for five years.
 
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