S.M. Stirling The Sunrise Lands

[Flocculencio]

I haven't read any of the previous books in the series but I thought this one was quite good.

Just a few problems, though. 20-something years seems a bit short a time for so much knowledge about the pre-Change world to have been lost. Also whats with all the weird religious groups? Most seemed ok- I can buy the idea of Wicca becoming more widespread and so on but why did the UK become Catholic? And why are there a bunch of people in the woods who speak Sindarin and believe that The Lord of the Rings was true? That last one, especially, was just pretty jarring for me.

 

[Amerigo Vespucci]

I picked this one up because I read the previous three books and I hate leaving any story unfinished. That being said, I won't read the next two. Stirling seems to be building up a magical fantasy using OTL as a backdrop, and it's really not my cup of tea.

 

[Admiral Matt]

You need to read the first three. But to tide you over for the moment:

The Wiccans benefited from sheer luck. On the one hand believing in magic makes it easier to accept the laws of physics have changed, and that increases the odds of survival. That's not the main factor, though. It's mentioned a few times in the books: When something as catastrophic as the change occurs, anyone who survives is very lucky. And anyone who does more than survive has to have enough lucky breaks to seem positively blessed. And when the world's falling apart, that's exactly the sort of person people gravitate toward. Juniper MacKenzie gets lucky, and happens to be a devout and charismatic Wiccan. So.

Portland went Catholic because the dictator who built the state after the Change had medieval fantasies and wanted his own pope.

England went Catholic for political reasons. A large proportion of the survivors under the crown were Catholics in Gibraltar. It was also in her interests to reconcile closely with the remaining states in Western Europe. Which were, in order of size: the Irish, the Sicilians, the Vatican-in-Umbria, and Norrland (the only Protestants). They were able to change because the modern English are renowned for their lack of loyalty to the Church of England. Often claiming membership amounts to vaguely believing in God, and not being Catholic, Muslim, etc. King William saw the advantages and had the prestige to push it through.

I think the book makes it pretty clear how CUT could be as successful as it was.

As to the loss of knowledge.... I don't think it that unreasonable. Literacy takes either a lot of money, or a society (like the MacKenzies) that puts a very heavy emphasis on it, and has from the get-go.

 

[Flocculencio]

I think the book makes it pretty clear how CUT could be as successful as it was.

Oh CUT makes perfect sense- an apocalyptic and evangelistic cult is the sort of organisation which thrives in situations like that. That's also why I wasn't surprised to see the Mormons doing well too- they have the motivation and organisation to hang together.

The trouble with all the Wiccan nonsense is that Wicca, being so nebulous, is the sort of belief which would not be likely to survive apocalyptic societal collapse. There's no hierarchy, nothing to sustain it. I'll grant that, as you say, luck has something to do with it in that Juniper happened to be in a position to spread her views.

Even so, I'd have thought that the evangelistic Christian denominations on one hand, and the well established ones on the other hand (i.e. groups ranging from the Catholics to the Baptists) would be more likely to gain dominance as they have pre-prepared support networks and motivation to bring people together. Fair enough, though- Stirling does seem to have an obsession with neopaganism so it doesn't really detract from the story.

The "Dunedain" in the woods are another thing altogether, though. That's just cringeworthy.

As to the loss of knowledge.... I don't think it that unreasonable. Literacy takes either a lot of money, or a society (like the MacKenzies) that puts a very heavy emphasis on it, and has from the get-go.

True, but in just twenty years? There are still going to be lots of libraries and such around. The level of knowledge held by the post-Change children about the years before the Change seems to be more on the order of strange myths from the depths of time.

The post-Change people are still modern enough to allow women a position in society that is essentially postindustrial when that sort of societal role isn't really supportable in a preindustrial subsistence economy and yet they've forgotten everything else?

Incidentally, with all the mention of "Moorish pirates", what happened to the non-white population of the UK? And the US, for that matter- some characters are Asian (Baron Li and the Sikhs) but I don't recall any mention of Black people.

 

[scottrossi]

you do bring up some legitimate points, but i don't think he was writing this setting strictly as a "what if" scenario. there are clearly liberties taken with what would most likely happen. in the first three books though, he does show the evolution of the girls' tolkien based group.

 

[Riain]

My biggest disappointment with the Sunrise Lands was the ignoring of the Bearkillers. I can easily tolerate la-de-da wicca if they're balanced by a bit of hard headed Bearkiller practicality, but they weren't.

 

[Faeelin]

Because the author wanted a strange fantasy world with aspects of the modern world thrown in.

 

[Slacker]

I was also sort of put off by the lack of Bearkillers. The practical Boise sorts were something, at least, but not really enough.

 

[David bar Elias]

Incidentally, with all the mention of "Moorish pirates", what happened to the non-white population of the UK? And the US, for that matter- some characters are Asian (Baron Li and the Sikhs) but I don't recall any mention of Black people.

IIRC, there was an African American character who Mike Havel rescues from a couple of neo-Nazis in Dies the Fire.

 

[Dave Howery]

Oh CUT makes perfect sense-

There is another thread on this book somewhere... in it, I went on in length about how CUT doesn't really make sense, because it is based in MT, which is totally unsuited to support a large medieval economy, especially those huge numbers of CUT soldiers in the book. It would make sense somewhere more fertile, but MT? Sorry, no....

 

[Cythia]

Sorry for not properly quoting, but don't know how.

The reason for the loss of knowledge is twofold.

One, most of it is useless. Think about it. No moderate to high tech works any longer. Why learn about Aerodynamics, Physics, or any higher math, when it's uses are extremely limited.

Two, when you are spending all of your time trying to get enough to eat and keeping it, Schooling in the esoteric knowledges has very limited utility. And it is extremely resource expensive. (Why are you wasting your time reading! The fields need tending!)

About the fringe religions. If the survivors mange to hold onto conventional beliefs systems after having been cut off at the knees, it would be surprising. "Where was God? Why did he do this? If he was real this could not have happened. Look, they are prospering in this new world, and they belive in a different god, who seems to be blessing them. I think I will join them."

As to the Dunedain, you need to read the first book to see how that happened. you really need to read the first book. Obsession coupled with charisma, sprinkled with ability and you got High elve wannabees in Oregonian Forests.

Are you really crazy if you are living crazy conditions?

 

[Flocculencio]

There is another thread on this book somewhere... in it, I went on in length about how CUT doesn't really make sense, because it is based in MT, which is totally unsuited to support a large medieval economy, especially those huge numbers of CUT soldiers in the book. It would make sense somewhere more fertile, but MT? Sorry, no....

Not being that familiar with the interior wilderness of Amrikastan I'll take your word for it

Still, I think my point stands with regard to their organisation if not their location- as with the Mormons, organisations like that would be the best suited to withstand the collapse of Western civilisation.

It would also be interesting to see more of the rest of the world- I enjoyed the tantalising references to New Singapore and Hindustan and so on.

 

[Flocculencio]

Two, when you are spending all of your time trying to get enough to eat and keeping it, Schooling in the esoteric knowledges has very limited utility. And it is extremely resource expensive. (Why are you wasting your time reading! The fields need tending!)

I'm not talking about esoteric knowledge though. Just basic knowledge. "There was a country called the United States- before the change it stretched from the Atlantic to the Pacific etc."

About the fringe religions. If the survivors mange to hold onto conventional beliefs systems after having been cut off at the knees, it would be surprising. "Where was God? Why did he do this? If he was real this could not have happened. Look, they are prospering in this new world, and they belive in a different god, who seems to be blessing them. I think I will join them."

The other response is "Oh no, God has chosen to smite us! Look- the Mormons and Catholics and CUTters are organised and prospering. Maybe they're on to something...I should join them to escape the vengeful wrath of the Lord!"

 

[Faeelin]

I'm not talking about esoteric knowledge though. Just basic knowledge. "There was a country called the United States- before the change it stretched from the Atlantic to the Pacific etc."

The implication of the series is that you need a king, or else your society can't survive change.

Thus England prevails, while the Germans call their new country Norland and the Italians can't unite.

 

[Grimm Reaper]

Faeelin, no Germans left, the Scandinavians call it Norrland.

Also, when society has completely come apart at the seems a monarchy can be useful as a rallying center of undisputed legitimacy, as opposed to some appointed deputy assistant undersecretary(even if legit) whose time in office would have expired anyway.

As for the growth of whichever the local religion is, even ignoring that some of them(CUT, Arminger's church) don't seem to be exactly tolerant of dissent, it doesn't seem too unreasonable that the minorities might get assimilated, especially when virtually all of society/culture/education/etc is centered on the local majority faith.

 

[sbegin]

You pretty much have to read the first trilogy to get the full evolution of the religious beliefs.

The Mackenzies centered around Juniper and her group of Wiccans; she was already the high priestess, and they were already used to taking directions from her, and they were organized. Due to some early success against bandits, they acquired much prestige, and surrounding communities joined them, impressed by their "mojo", if you want to call it that. It followed that many people converted to Wicca, due to the leaders being wiccans and being more successful at surviving than others around them.

As for schooling... you teach the basics of reading, writing, and arithmetics... but why learn history? Those countries just don't exist anymore. Why learn geography? You'll never travel to Europe again. So, it's a question of learning what you need immediately, because you're so busy surviving, you have to spend your time wisely. Even now, if you don't force kids to learn history and geography, there will only be a small portion of them who will pursue it on their own.

As for the Elves, that's an entirely different story!!!
I find that a bit unbelievable myself, that someone like Astrid came to have so much influence, but hey, it's his story!

 

[CalBear]

IIRC, there was an African American character who Mike Havel rescues from a couple of neo-Nazis in Dies the Fire.

There was, character named Will Hutton. He was the # 2 guy in the Bearkillers.

 

[Faeelin]

Also, when society has completely come apart at the seems a monarchy can be useful as a rallying center of undisputed legitimacy, as opposed to some appointed deputy assistant undersecretary(even if legit) whose time in office would have expired anyway.

Disagree completely. I think there's a lot of substance to the idea of an "empire of laws, and not of men."

Look at how the Roman Republic survived disasters that would have left (and did) cause the Hellenistic kingdoms to fall.

Yet suddenly everyone forgets they are from a democratic society.

Err.

 

[CalBear]

There is another thread on this book somewhere... in it, I went on in length about how CUT doesn't really make sense, because it is based in MT, which is totally unsuited to support a large medieval economy, especially those huge numbers of CUT soldiers in the book. It would make sense somewhere more fertile, but MT? Sorry, no....

This was addressed on Stirling's Yahoo group, among other places. Montana has huge numbers of cattle; in a post die off world far more than would be needed to support the population. Better yet, they are mostly free range, at least to a degree that you would have the entire spring & summer to gather sufficient fodder to keep a decent percentage alive. Montana, along with Iowa, is supposed to come out of the 1st year in one of the best conditions possible, with the majority of deaths being those who needed modern medicines (frex: Insulin) or powered assistance to move about.

 

[Dave Howery]

This was addressed on Stirling's Yahoo group, among other places. Montana has huge numbers of cattle; in a post die off world far more than would be needed to support the population. Better yet, they are mostly free range, at least to a degree that you would have the entire spring & summer to gather sufficient fodder to keep a decent percentage alive. Montana, along with Iowa, is supposed to come out of the 1st year in one of the best conditions possible, with the majority of deaths being those who needed modern medicines (frex: Insulin) or powered assistance to move about.

but none of that addresses the problem that MT has huge chunks of land that aren't suitable for plowing and growing crops... and big chunks of it are very dry... and the whole area naturally goes through droughts on a regular basis... and the winters there are loooong and COLD! To be sure, MT does have a lot of forests, but these are dry forests (i.e., slow growing), so fuel is going to be a problem. MT could support some population on a medieval basis, mainly in the river bottoms (which does have some very good soil, and water nearby)... but when you get away from the rivers, the land quickly becomes dry and alkali, and good only for grazing cattle. I don't think the population that MT could support would allow for those huge CUT armies in the book....