Russians shut out of versilles

Moglwi

Monthly Donor
I was wondering if the Allies in WW1 Let the Germans keep The Brest lestov gains as the Russians made a separate peace with Germans in 17 so they do not deserve anything from Versellise.
 
Not going to happen. Letting Germany keep the Brest-Litovsk lands would have made Germany economically stronger than it was before the war; no way in hell, that the British or French are going to let Germany come out ahead.
 
I was wondering if the Allies in WW1 Let the Germans keep The Brest lestov gains as the Russians made a separate peace with Germans in 17 so they do not deserve anything from Versellise.

If anything, they're either going to back friendly a Nationalist movements' claims to the land, or demand it's return to the Whites (assuming they can better organize a "legitiment" government in exile)
 
That's OTL, Russia was not officially represented at the peace conference anyway; they didn't participate in the treaties and didn't gain anything from Versailles. Brest-Litovsk was not annuled on Russia's behalf, it was replaced by the newly free nations of eastern Europe. Letting Germany (re-)establish hegemony over them would have been absurd.
 
The Spring Offensive would have had to have had to have been successful enough to really frighten the Entente, and be coupled with a proposal from a more diplomatically savvy Germany than existed,of a withdrawal to the prewar border and some gains for the Entente--at a minimum, a plebiscite in Ellas-Lothringen, and perhaps other concessions. Wilson wanted peace without victory; he might be the one to approach. Perhaps if the Kerensky regime had looked for peace right away, Germany could have pulled something off.
 

nbcman

Donor
That's OTL, Russia was not officially represented at the peace conference anyway; they didn't participate in the treaties and didn't gain anything from Versailles. Brest-Litovsk was not annuled on Russia's behalf, it was replaced by the newly free nations of eastern Europe. Letting Germany (re-)establish hegemony over them would have been absurd.
Article 126 of the Treaty of Versailles explicitly abrogated / cancelled the Treaty of Brest Litovsk; please see this extract from Part III of the Treaty titled Russia and Russian States:

Section XIV. Russia and Russian States
Article 116
Germany acknowledges and agrees to respect as permanent and inalienable the independence of all the territories which were part of the former Russian Empire on 1 August 1914. In accordance with the provisions of Article 259 of Part IX (Financial Clauses) and Article 292 of Part X (Economic Clauses) Germany accepts definitely the abrogation of the Brest-Litovsk Treaties and of all other treaties, conventions, and agreements entered into by her with the Maximalist Government in Russia. The Allied and Associated Powers formally reserve the rights of Russia to obtain from Germany restitution and reparation based on the principles of the present Treaty.

Article 117
Germany undertakes to recognise the full force of all treaties or agreements which may be entered into by the Allied and Associated Powers with States now existing or coming into existence in future in the whole or part of the former Empire of Russia as it existed on 1 August 1914, and to recognise the frontiers of any such States as determined therein.
 

nbcman

Donor
Allied official policy was to support the newly independent states, not give them back to Russia.
Agreed. The Germans were also bound by Article 117 to recognize the treaties with and the frontiers of those 'States now existing or coming into existence in future in the whole or part of the former Empire of Russia as it existed on 1 August 1914'.
 
Article 126 of the Treaty of Versailles explicitly abrogated / cancelled the Treaty of Brest Litovsk; please see this extract from Part III of the Treaty titled Russia and Russian States:

Indeed, Brest-Litovsk was cancelled - but my point was that this was not on Russia's behalf in any way (and that Russia wasn't in on Versailles).
Emphasis on

Section XIV. Russia and Russian States
Article 116
Germany acknowledges and agrees to respect as permanent and inalienable the independence of all the territories which were part of the former Russian Empire on 1 August 1914. In accordance with the provisions of Article 259 of Part IX (Financial Clauses) and Article 292 of Part X (Economic Clauses) Germany accepts definitely the abrogation of the Brest-Litovsk Treaties and of all other treaties, conventions, and agreements entered into by her with the Maximalist Government in Russia. The Allied and Associated Powers formally reserve the rights of Russia to obtain from Germany restitution and reparation based on the principles of the present Treaty.

Article 117
Germany undertakes to recognise the full force of all treaties or agreements which may be entered into by the Allied and Associated Powers with States now existing or coming into existence in future in the whole or part of the former Empire of Russia as it existed on 1 August 1914, and to recognise the frontiers of any such States as determined therein.
 
I was wondering if the Allies in WW1 Let the Germans keep The Brest lestov gains as the Russians made a separate peace with Germans in 17 so they do not deserve anything from Versellise.

The problem with this is that the Allies were anticipating the overthrow of the Bolsheviks and their replacement by a pro-Western government--which would repay French bondholders by taking reparations from Germany. Hence Article 116. See my post at https://www.alternatehistory.com/fo...le-116-and-soviet-russia-two-what-ifs.432631/
 
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